Immigration Status Questions To Expand To Healthcare?

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Aug 1, 2007

I guess I'm old-fashioned and think that U.S. citizenship is something special. I don't think of people who enter the United States illegally as being people who really respect our Constitution and laws. They might be good people in other ways, but they obviously aren't 'good citizens' if they don't obey the law. And they aren't U.S. citizens, and shouldn't have that opportunity, in my opinion, just because they are here (illegally). But I still think that everyone should get basic healthcare.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 1, 2007

They might be good people in other ways, but they obviously aren't 'good citizens' if they don't obey the law.
So people who drive above the speed limit are not good citizens, either. There goes about 95% of the population, including a lot of police officers....
If the rest of your post is your opinion, that's fine. But the rules of immigration are not the same for everybody, and they should be. Cubans, if they reach US soil, automatically get their greencard. A lot of Europeans don't have to have a visa to come here. My friend from Finland just visited here and all she had to do was fill out an intent to visit form, state how long and why she's coming, and bam! She's in. Try getting a visa if you are Juan Q. Latin-American, and you might be waiting 15, 20, or more years for your visa, unless you are extremely wealthy or talented. Walk a mile in his shoes and tell me you wouldn't think of coming to the richest country on earth, which happens to be right next door.
I don't think it's old-fashioned to think US citizenship is something special. I thank my lucky stars every day to have been born here. I didn't even have to work for it. But it should be equally hard or equally easy for everybody else who wants it.
Back to the topic at hand, I really doubt we in healthcare will ever be asked to question someone's immigration status. And if it does happen, I will be the first conscientious objector.

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Aug 1, 2007

I think the problem is that there are many more Latin Americans who would like to come in. Not too many Finlanders are trying to immigrate, therefore they don't meet their quotas. The quotas from Mexico are quickly met because so many more want to come.

Here's some information:http://www.kkeane.com/quota-faq.shtml

There actually are two separate quota systems in place. The first quota system limits the number of people who can apply in each category, regardless of their country of birth. The second quota limits the number of people who can immigrate from any one country (this goes by the place you were born, not your nationality!). This per-country quota says that no country can send more than 7% of the total worldwide immigration (this translates to 25,620). Unfortunately, this system puts large countries at a disadvantage; the quota is the same for India and China with a billion people each as for Nauru, with approximately 10,000 people.

If many people from one country want to immigrate to the USA. the total number of immigrants may reach the per-country quota, and the number of people admitted in all immigration quotas will be reduced for this country.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 1, 2007

You are right, jls.

Perhaps our system should be adjusted so that we can look at how many visa apps are received each year from each country. Say 45 Finns apply out of however many hundred/thousand the quota is. Ok, adjust the quota from Finland to 400. That still gives you room for more apps. And take the rest and apply them to bigger countries with more applicants, like India, China or (gasp!) Mexico. (the gasp was meant to be tongue-in-cheek....)

Those are just arbitrary number and countries I've thrown up there. I don't know what the answer is. But I do know it's not going to get any better or go away if we ignore it as we have been doing.

Keysnurse2008 · Aug 2, 2007

you are right, jls.
perhaps our system should be adjusted so that we can look at how many visa apps are received each year from each country. say 45 finns apply out of however many hundred/thousand the quota is. ok, adjust the quota from finland to 400. that still gives you room for more apps. and take the rest and apply them to bigger countries with more applicants, like india, china or (gasp!) mexico. (the gasp was meant to be tongue-in-cheek....)
those are just arbitrary number and countries i've thrown up there. i don't know what the answer is. but i do know it's not going to get any better or go away if we ignore it as we have been doing.

[color=slategray]hmm...i think everyone has some strong opinions regarding this.i can see both sides...i particularly am not happy about people "sneaking" into the usa.i feel like it doesnt benefit anyone in the end....do it rigt...learn a trade and come to the usa! then...i can also see how...if ...if i were unlucky enough to be born elsewhere...would i let a fence seperate me from being able to acquire a job to be able to adequately care for my family.

lets say...you lefta life of immense poverty to enter into the usa to be able to provide for your children.finally your kids would be in a nice school, you would have job opportunities...doors would be opened for both you and your kids.you would have access to adequate healthcare, safe water, etc etc...so i can see both sides. i too unfortunately have seen the side of the untalked about side of illegal immigrants.i remember a time in the past when a illegal immigrant was involved in a drunk driving wreck.the driver and passenger of the other care was doa...it was a mom and dad of 2 small kids.so..he not only entered the usa illegally but once here continued to break laws.

i have some incredible friends that have immigrated here from various countries....and all that i hear from them is "they should respect the usa and its laws and enter and wait for their visa just as i did.".so...i dont know all the answers....i just know its not an occupation i want!!!:welcome:

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 2, 2007

hmm...i think everyone has some strong opinions regarding this.i can see both sides...i particularly am not happy about people "sneaking" into the usa.i feel like it doesnt benefit anyone in the end....do it rigt...learn a trade and come to the usa! then...i can also see how...if ...if i were unlucky enough to be born elsewhere...would i let a fence seperate me from being able to acquire a job to be able to adequately care for my family.
lets say...you lefta life of immense poverty to enter into the usa to be able to provide for your children.finally your kids would be in a nice school, you would have job opportunities...doors would be opened for both you and your kids.you would have access to adequate healthcare, safe water, etc etc...so i can see both sides. i too unfortunately have seen the side of the untalked about side of illegal immigrants.i remember a time in the past when a illegal immigrant was involved in a drunk driving wreck.the driver and passenger of the other care was doa...it was a mom and dad of 2 small kids.so..he not only entered the usa illegally but once here continued to break laws.
i have some incredible friends that have immigrated here from various countries....and all that i hear from them is "they should respect the usa and its laws and enter and wait for their visa just as i did.".so...i dont know all the answers....i just know its not an occupation i want!!!:welcome:

y'know, tn, we really don't see things that differently.

it just seems to me too often the issues are confused. in the incident you mentioned, the real issue is drunk driving. the fact that the driver was here illegally is a separate issue for me. either way the people were just as dead. alcoholism and drunk driving are a big source of shame to most of the hispanic community. one of the spanish-language newspapers in my area prints a list each week, to be seen by any who read, of hispanics who have been arrested for driving drunk. the title at the top of the list reads, "doesn't this make you ashamed?" i would be so bold as to say that for illegal immigrants, entering the country (or overstaying their visas) illegally is the only thing they have done wrong. not trying to minimize the hurt that the family was caused by the accident, just stating that i think the issues are separate. would as big a deal have been made had the driver been john q. redneck? doubt it, but it's still just as wrong.

i don't think that the story you recounted is the 'untold' side at all. if anything, i think i hear more stories like that as a reason why we need to kick out all however-many-million and slam the door in their faces. very rarely do i hear much positive about hispanics in general, much less those who are here illegally. this is a touchy subject for me anyway, as i live in the hispanic community.

my biggest issue has been, and continues to be, that the immigration laws are not the same for us all. whereas one person may only have to wait a few months for their visa, the wait from most places in latin america is around 20 years. and in the meantime, their families are supposed to starve, i guess. makes me sick. and angry.

"...with liberty and justice for all."

(this is not directed at anyone in particular....though i did quote tnnurse. and i'm also giving myself an :offtopic: for the entire post.)

FireStarterRN, BSN, RN · Aug 2, 2007

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people just don't want to see the population of the United States keep growing. They see the countryside become more crowded, the urban areas more blighted. They barely can afford their own kids and limit their family size because of economics. Then they see a lot of illegal immigrants and they feel resentful.

Without immigration, legal and illegal, the population wouldn't be growing like this, and there would be more room to breathe free. I think part of the problem is crowding and population growth.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 2, 2007

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people just don't want to see the population of the United States keep growing. They see the countryside become more crowded, the urban areas more blighted. They barely can afford their own kids and limit their family size because of economics. Then they see a lot of illegal immigrants and they feel resentful.
Without immigration, legal and illegal, the population wouldn't be growing like this, and there would be more room to breathe free. I think part of the problem is crowding and population growth.

On the flip side:

So then it was ok for our ancestors to come here and take up space and drive people off the land that was already theirs, but not ok for others to come here later on?? Essentially we've come in and are wanting to slam the door behind us.

I think a bigger problem than crowding/population growth is distribution of resources. Instead of spending however many billion/trillion dollars in Iraq (or on pay raises for Congress, or whatever) could we not use those dollars for something more useful? Like, say, a complete overhaul of the immigration system? Or increased funding for those hospitals at the border who find themselves in such desperate financial straits? I'm sure we could all find better things to do with that money spent.

I have to disagree with you that people resent immigrants having more kids etc. It seems to me that were said immigrants white and English-speaking, there would not be nearly the fuss made, be they legal or not. I don't like to play the race card, but I think it's playable here. People are afraid of the unfamiliar, and brown people who speak another language very often fall into that category. If that defines a "blighted" area, then my house is blighted. And proudly so.

It's so ironic...the same things being said about Hispanic immigrants now are the exact same things people said about Irish, Italian, Polish, Hungarian, German, and other European immigrants a hundred years ago. "They bring their diseases." "They don't speak English." "They're crowding our cities." Anyone see "Gangs of New York"?

I'm arguing the point, not with you personally, jls. Pointing out the flip side, if you will.

kcochrane · Aug 2, 2007

Y'know, TN, we really don't see things THAT differently.
It just seems to me too often the issues are confused. In the incident you mentioned, the real issue is drunk driving. The fact that the driver was here illegally is a separate issue for me. Either way the people were just as dead. Alcoholism and drunk driving are a big source of shame to most of the Hispanic community. One of the Spanish-language newspapers in my area prints a list each week, to be seen by any who read, of Hispanics who have been arrested for driving drunk. The title at the top of the list reads, "Doesn't this make you ashamed?" I would be so bold as to say that for illegal immigrants, entering the country (or overstaying their visas) illegally is the only thing they have done wrong. Not trying to minimize the hurt that the family was caused by the accident, just stating that I think the issues are separate. Would as big a deal have been made had the driver been John Q. Redneck? Doubt it, but it's still just as wrong.
I don't think that the story you recounted is the 'untold' side at all. If anything, I think I hear more stories like that as a reason why we need to kick out all however-many-million and slam the door in their faces. Very rarely do I hear much positive about Hispanics in general, much less those who are here illegally. This is a touchy subject for me anyway, as I live in the Hispanic community.
My biggest issue has been, and continues to be, that the immigration laws are NOT the same for us all. Whereas one person may only have to wait a few months for their visa, the wait from most places in Latin America is around 20 years. And in the meantime, their families are supposed to starve, I guess. Makes me sick. And angry.
"...with liberty and justice FOR ALL."
(this is not directed at anyone in particular....though I did quote TNNURSE. And I'm also giving myself an :offtopic: for the entire post.)

I have to respectfully disagree. Most that are hear illegally are driving without drivers licenses and insurance. Unfortunately if they cause an accident with you, guess who pays? I don't know about you but having to pay a deductable on an accident that wasn't my fault just adds to my financial situation. Granted we have legals here that do that, but at least they can be brought before the court. Try finding someone that ran into you and then ran to sue them.

Many are using fack social security numbers and if you are the unlucky one that actually has someone using their number, have fun with the IRS. It is up to YOU to prove that it was not you that earned that money.

Unfortunately if you look at the numbers, most are draining far more resources than they are paying in taxes - in most cases they are not paying taxes. Either they don't make enough to pay or they are getting paid under the table.

On the flip side we have millions here that are able to be abused by their employers because they are afraid to call the police.

I agree that many of the illegals could add something positive to this country. But I not willing to have millions of people hear that have no accountablity or responsibilties to this country.

As I said before, I don't have a problem increasing the amount of people getting in...but that needs to be done not only with those from Mexico, but other countries with low quotas. We need to know who is here and who they are. It not only benefits those that live here legally, but helps those coming in protect themselves. It not only allows them to reap the benefits of the country, but gives them the responsibilities that others have here..taxes, insurance, etc.

Edited to add: I do agree with everyone else that nurses or medical personnel should not be the ones to be determining who is legal and who is illegal.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 2, 2007

I have to respectfully disagree. Most that are hear illegally are driving without drivers licenses and insurance.

Ok, I have to respectfully disagree back.

How do you know that most do not own DLs? I live in the immigrant community in our area and know many illegal immigrants....and guess what? Most of them have drivers licenses! And if they don't, it's not for them not wanting to....many states have made it impossible for them to get DLs. I think that is a stupid idea, for the very reasons you mentioned in your post. A DL proves nothing about your immigration status, nor should it. It proves that you know the traffic laws. That's its purpose, and anything else is a misuse.

The fake SSN thing...it's not a big concern for me. Has this actually happened to you or someone you know? Otherwise, it sounds like hyperbole to me. There are a lot of people who will get on TV and talk about immigration when they know next to nothing about it. This sounds like one of those things. Most of the immigrants I have encountered (in the thousands, over the years) are not stupid enough to use John Smith's SSN when they look like a José or a Vladimir, or pick your nationality. Most of them use SSNs that are arbitrarily made up. So the odds that an illegal immigrant is going to actually be using YOUR name and SSN are probably really small. I'm not a statistician, but that seems logical to me. And if they did use it to get a job? You might have to prove to the IRS that you didn't earn that $$ but then you'd have to give back all that nice Medicare and Social Security that got taken out on your behalf. Cause the person, if they are an illegal immigrant, is probably not going to file taxes at the end of the year to get any of it back.

And if they don't pay taxes because they don't make enough, what is the big deal about that? Americans wouldn't have to either, so I don't get what the complaint is.

We seem to agree that the quotas should be raised from high-volume areas. And I agree with you that it shouldn't just be Mexico...India, China, and the Philippines are a just a few other places I could name.

I'm not attacking you, it just seems that there is a lot of misinformation/misperception floating around out there. I have a bit of a unique perspective and feel compelled to add my side to the debate whenever I see/hear said misinformation.

Also worth checking out:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=415

http://www.justiceforimmigrants.org/myths.html

*once again, stepping down*

kcochrane · Aug 3, 2007

Arwen U,

Gotta disagree back..but I do enjoy the debate..thanks.

Regarding the SSN- ever deal with the IRS? It is up to you to prove that you didn not earn that money. I don't know about you, but I really can't afford a lawyer at $200/hr to help me with something like this. I guess until it happens to you it probably isn't an issue.

Here is some info on the problem:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

One of my co-workers got back from Florida and had a lady run into her car. Because the lady was illegal, had no DL and no insurance, they pretty much told her to write it off. Now mind you this is just one story. BTW there are only 11 states that allow illegal immigrants to get DLs. So if most illegals have dl, then how did they get them?

Listen we could go back and forth all day on this issue, but the fact is that both the US and illegal immigrants would be better off if we made more work visas and let them come back in legally. We need to know who is here. I would bet that most illegals would prefer to be getting their own SSN's and paying their own share. Come on in and share the benefits and responsiblities with me.

We probably agree more than we think we do. :)

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 3, 2007

Most illegals that I know have their licenses because they got them before states passed the laws that made it impossible. So who knows what's going to happen when those licenses expire...it's probably going to get a lot worse. I don't like that idea because the very thing can happen like you mentioned -- someone hits me with no insurance, I get left with the bill. I think it's in everybody's best interest to give illegal immigrants licenses to avoid exactly that scenario.

I totally agree with you that we need to expand the visa program, and fix the situation for those that are here illegally. I can tell you from personal experience that most people would rather NOT be here illegally but have found coming here any other way impossible. Most would gladly share the responsibilities with you if they were allowed to. Those who would not, I believe, are a very small minority.

It seems that we more or less want the same thing, just from different perspective and maybe (or maybe not) for different reasons.