How many RN's scrub?

Ferret · Jun 17, 2004

And P.s, Hooray For Those Rns Out There Who Do The Insts, Assist And Circulate, You Guys Are Great, They Sure Don't Make Them Like You Anymore!!!

Sure they do, in Australia, England.... we do all roles, all the time, and have no scrub techs. Come and visit sometime.. 8^)

shodobe · Jun 18, 2004

So tell us onebadort, what makes you so special? In one post you slap us up side the head then the next post you praise us for doing what we do. What is it, praise or ridicule? Make up your mind.

stevierae · Jun 18, 2004

hooray for austrailia, i have an ortho surgeon from new zealand, does that count ha ha, hey im telling ya, i think all nurses in the or should do all the roles, they make such a big stink about having the rn behind their name, so give them something to be proud of, if you were the tech, wouldnt u feel the same way!! ferret, sounds like austrailia has it under control, thanks for the response :balloons:

Onedabart, you cannot possibly realize how silly this sounds. Some of us, myself included, have been scrubbing since before you were born. I scrub and circulate ALL specialties except open heart, which is boring as he**. When I was in the Navy in the Vietnam era, (I was 19 in OR school) we had to put up the instruments (that is, work in CSR and wash and string up and wrap and autoclave the instrument trays.) You had better believe I know all the instruments; probably many you have never used. And I am willing to bet that either shodobe or I can scrub circles around you in ortho, neuro or trauma. My favorite area is spinal instrumentation cases, and I know every possible system because I have done many. I have also worked with some awesome, awesome scrub techs, and I learn new things from them all the time--but not instrumentation.

None of this is bragging--in the '80s, many, many hospitals adopted a philosophy of an all nurse operating room staff, and of course we all did everything--otherwise we couldn't take call. Therefore, MOST RNs of our era are equally proficient in both roles, and particualrly if you worked at trauma centers (I did.) You'd be surprised how many RNs are in charge of CSRs everywhere, and you'd be surprised how many RNs are teachers in operating room technician programs. Yes, that means they teach the scrub techs the instruments.

I, too, am interested in just what it is that makes YOU so special. What sets you apart from other scrub techs or nurses who scrub?

"Can't we all just get along?"

Ferret · Jun 19, 2004

sounds like austrailia has it under control, thanks for the response :balloons:

Don't I wish we had it under control. We have anaesthetic technicians gradually increasing in numbers, some of our managers are not nurses, and more and more enrolled nurses (?LPN?) in the operating suite are being taught to scrub as well as scout. Not that I have a problem with that, at least they are nurses, not people off the street. I was an EN for 9 years before registering, and it seems that most EN's intend to do the two year conversion course we have here. New Legislation and courses are now teaching and allowing EN's to administer medications, which is a rather contraversial topic at the moment here.

I guess what I'm getting at is the problem of the worldwide nursing shortage is leading to a deskilling of many areas of healthcare, but we need more nurses, not more scrub or anaesthetic techs, to compensate. These technicians seem to be such specialists that they are unable to work in any other area, such as relieve the scout or help out in recovery as needed, and they certainly are not trained in the clinical judgement skills that are drummed into us throughout our training.

Every patient deserves a nurse looking after them at all times.

shodobe · Jun 19, 2004

Well, ferret, that is the problem we as nurses are facing in the US. Hospitals are going after the technically trained individual and not the clinically trained person. The one dimensional person who can ONLY do one thing. Not much help when you think about it. Just wait until your legislation starts to allow these individuals to "scout" for you despite what their training is. There have been some threads that indicate some states are leaning that way to "alleviate" the nursing shortage. POPPYCOCK! This boils down to finances. Cheap labor. The public won't know what hit them until it is too late. You are right that EVERY patient deserves to have an RN looking after them at all times. As stevierae stated above there was a time that all ORs around the country had an all RN staff and didn't even comtemplated hiring techs for any reason. I am lucky that my Director still holds to this philosophy and only hires RNs and not techs. She wants to get the most bang out of her buck. Hospitals in general are having a difficult time finding RNs to fill vacancies and have resorted to filling these with non-licensed individuals. I can guarantee you if the person hiring had the choice they would not hire techs at all. I think this is a trend that will continue and as nurses we will have to fight to keep our identity in the OR. This is why, I think, unions will have a great impact on how nursing is percieved in the future. Unions will give us the power to defeat any change that will eliminate our presence in the OR, which is diminishing more and more each year to "certified" individuals. I gues I am the lucky one, along with several of the other "older" nurses, to have gone through most of my career (27 years!) and never have had to work along side a tech until the past few years. I know this will appear to be a slap in the face to all techs, but thats how I feel and I am not really sorry for feeling that way. Mike

PS, I have worked with several very competent and skilled techs over the past couple of years, so I wanted techs to know I don't consider all incompetent, just not needed.

MelissaRN · Jun 19, 2004

I think alot of the problem about not having enough nurses in the OR is that nursing schools don't do any OR training . If a nurse wants an OR job he/she has to be lucky enough to find a hospital that will give on the job training, or enroll in continuing education courses. Alot of nurses are interested in the OR but can't get in due to lack of training. OR's should have some kind of training program to get more RN's.

shodobe · Jun 20, 2004

There are a few hospitals in California that do have perioperative programs to train individuals to work in their ORs. These are programs that last 8 weeks and more pay you a stipend whilr training and then require you to give them up to two years of work before moving on. The problem with these is, there are not enough of them around. A lot of hospitals do not have the time or resources to provide the training and will only hire those with a few years under their belt. Where I work we have no problem taking a novice and training them from start to finish. Mike

stevierae · Jun 20, 2004

There are a few hospitals in California that do have perioperative programs to train individuals to work in their ORs. These are programs that last 8 weeks and more pay you a stipend whilr training and then require you to give them up to two years of work before moving on. The problem with these is, there are not enough of them around. A lot of hospitals do not have the time or resources to provide the training and will only hire those with a few years under their belt. Where I work we have no problem taking a novice and training them from start to finish. Mike

You know, personally, I do NOT like to work with med-surg nurses who have come to the OR to be trained on the job. Without exception the ones I have worked with all have attitudes about how they already know everything, and they never get out of the med-surg mindset. They alwys seem to be ineffective in major vascular cases, spine, neuro, and trauma, and are all thumbs at ortho--or maybe they are passive aggressive, and are acutally "dumb like foxes--" they just don't want to work hard. They'd rather do GYN, minor general case, eyes and simple plastic surgery. They tend to be very manipulative, and always weasel out of doing the harder assignments, putting an unfair load on their co-workers, who end up having to switch room assignments with them repeatedly. Instead of assisting anesthesia with induction, they are over at the counter doing paperwork. Also, they can never seem to get along with the surgeons--its like they consider them the enemy.

I really think that med surg nurses who want to go to the OR should first take a community college based OR nursing course first--not try to do it OJT. Mind you, I am NOT slamming med-surg nurses--I just think they were trained differently than we were; as a result they think and prioritize differently, and their experience and way of doing things does not translate well to the OR environment.

However, I have had great experiences with ER and ICU nurses who come to the OR to train. They learn quickly and they THINK like we do. They can multitask, delegate quickly and appropriately, don't need to be TOLD what to do--just do what needs to be done--and most importantly PRIORITIZE. The can make nursing decisions such as putting on TEDS and SCDs at their own discretion, not 10 hours into a case stating that they didn't do it becuase "there wasn't an order."

I have always worked with great techs, as well. In fact, I have worked with some phenomenal techs who really, in my opinion, should have gone to medical school and become surgeons--their technical skills were that good. Ofcourse, there are always the lazy techs (just as there are lazy nurses) who only want to do their "specialty" and that's IT, but I have ONLY encountered that in Oregon. In CA, the techs I have worked with do everything--ortho, neuro, vascular, trauma, bariatric surgery, spines, advanced laparoscopy--equally well, and don't complain. They are all young and enthusiastic, and are great team members.

MelissaRN · Jun 20, 2004

You know, personally, I do NOT like to work with med-surg nurses who have come to the OR to be trained on the job. Without exception the ones I have worked with all have attitudes about how they already know everything, and they never get out of the med-surg mindset. They alwys seem to be ineffective in major vascular cases, spine, neuro, and trauma, and are all thumbs at ortho--or maybe they are passive aggressive, and are acutally "dumb as foxes--" they just don't want to work hard. They'd rather do GYN, minor general case, eyes and simple plastic surgery. They tend to be very manipulative, and always weasel out of doing the harder assignments, putting an unfair load on their co-workers, who end up having to switch room assignments with them repeatedly. Instead of assisting anesthesia with induction, they are over at the counter doing paperwork. Also, they can never seem to get along with the surgeons--its like they consider them the enemy.
I really think that med surg nurses who want to go to the OR should first take a community college based OR nursing course first--not try to do it OJT. Mind you, I am NOT slamming med-surg nurses--I just think they were trianed differently than we were; as a result they think and prioritize differently, and their experience and way of doing things does not translate well to the OR environment.
However, I have had great experiences with ER and ICU nurses who come to the OR to train. They learn quickly and they THINK like we do. They can multitask, delegate quickly and appropriately, don't need to be TOLD what to do--just do what needs to be done--and most importantly PRIOITIZE. The can make nursing decisions such as puuint on TEDS and SCDs at their own discretion, not 10 hours into a case stating that they didn't do it becuase "there wasn't an order."
I have always worked with great techs, as well. In fact, I have worked with some phenomenal techs who really, in my opinion, should have gone to medical school and become surgeons--their technical skills were that good. Ofcourse, there are always the lazy techs (just as there are lazy nurses) who only want to do their "specialty" and that's IT, but I have ONLY encountered that in Oregon. In CA, the techs I have worked with do everything--ortho, neuro, vascualr, trauma, bariatric surgery, spines, advanced laparoscopy--equally well, and don't complain. They are all young and enthusiastic, and are great team members.

Well I am a med/surg nurse that moved to the OR because I think it's a great specialty. I hope that there's hope for me even though I came from med/surg. There are a lot of nurses that I know that started out med/surg before moving to the OR and they seem pretty good. I'm excited to be doing it. You do use your skills differently, but I just watch and learn and ask questions.

stevierae · Jun 20, 2004

but I just watch and learn and ask questions.

And for this reason you will do fine in the operating room. I am talking about the ones who already know everything (or so they believe) have attitudes, are lazy, and never listen. You've worked with them.

MelissaRN · Jun 20, 2004

Yep I've worked with them and most of them end up in some type of management position. LOL Just kidding. The lazy ones that I have worked with are just doing it for the money and can't try a job better suited to them because they can't afford to financially.

RedSox33RN · Jun 20, 2004

I think alot of the problem about not having enough nurses in the OR is that nursing schools don't do any OR training . If a nurse wants an OR job he/she has to be lucky enough to find a hospital that will give on the job training, or enroll in continuing education courses. Alot of nurses are interested in the OR but can't get in due to lack of training. OR's should have some kind of training program to get more RN's.

I hope you guys don't mind me butting in. I'm starting nursing school this fall, and my dream is to become an OR nurse.

I must agree with your statement, Melissa. There are a few hospitals around here now that are looking for RN's with 1-2 years Med-Surg experience to enter their OR training programs. Most of the programs last upwards of 2 years (?!?), but they do get pay and benefits.

I have a friend finishing up a Surgical Tech training program in August (an 11 month program), and the hospital she is training from told her IF she wanted to go on to get her RN, she wouldn't even have to complete all of the nursing courses, since some of her courses would be considered transfer credits.

Could someone explain this to me? It makes no sense to me. I have nothing against what she is doing, but I don't see how I've been busting my butt in Ethics and Psych and Socio and A&P and Micro, and they can seemingly bypass all of that and do a few nursing courses? That doesn't sound right. She told me they did take an "accelerated" type of A&P course (sounded more like Human Bio) with no lab, not even A&P2 or Micro or any electives. These aren't hospitals that have Diploma RN programs (none of those around here anymore), so it's not like they would be transferring into one of those either.

Anyway, I must say that I enjoy this forum, and hope to join for good someday! :)