How on earth...?

sanakruz, ADN · Nov 8, 2002

That is a bullshit diagnosis- DSM IV sez you must be 18 to receive that DX.- If both parents carry a bonafide DX of bipolar, maybe it's a "preliminary, precautionary diagnosis" No MD is going to medicate a 2 year old with LICO3 however or anything else for that matter- Its like medicating a fetus! No pharmasist would fill the prescription! Sounds like one of those urban legends. What is the American board anyway?

CliveUK · Nov 8, 2002

I can't recall the board where I read it, but it also appeared as a subject on the psychiatric nursing email list I'm a member of. It was also further confirmed by a friend of mine (a nurse) who moved to the States.

These are just a selection of sites I found on the subject of childhood BAD. And it would seem, from reading these, that kids are being treated with lithium

http://www.klis.com/chandler/pamphlet/bipolar/bipolarpamphlet.htm

http://www.bpkids.org/learning/about.htm

http://www.nami.org/helpline/bipolar-child.html

Absolutely amazing!!!

sanakruz, ADN · Nov 9, 2002

TIME magazine did a cover story on BAD a couple months ago. Its quite fasionable to be BAD these days or have BAD children much as Hollywood was{ loaded }with those in AA and recovery in the 80's. I strongly believe it is the well-to =do that suffer from these afflications, not the poor. I still say horseshit.

sanakruz, ADN · Nov 9, 2002

Hey ! Dr. Chandler is Canadian. And I question his diagnostic skills. Doesnt appear he is using the DSM IV. His description of hypomania sounds like teenage angst to me....

sanakruz, ADN · Nov 9, 2002

Ok and CBDF in the second link is a parents group that put up the web page(Ativan for mania! Give me a f88888g break! Once again no DSM IV criteria mentioned

sanakruz, ADN · Nov 9, 2002

Ok now for NAMI's site... I stand by my previous comments. These symptoms described dont look like adult symptoms hence the newly coined COBAD. (childhood onset) I'll bet this gets debunked just like that horseshit about recovered memories last decade ( unrecalled satanic torture ? that happened to you and you dont remember it??? See how you are!) They actually gave workshops to therapists on how to uncover these memories for their clients!

CliveUK · Nov 9, 2002

psychnurse, I second your "horseshit". The "symptoms" these children display could be attributed to any number of causes apart from a mental illness - social, environmental, physical illness-related. But dime to a dollar this appears in DSM-IV soon! There's a whole new market out there for the 'mental health' industry to exploit.

KarafromPhilly · Nov 10, 2002

Wow--I just stumbled onto this discussion and I am shocked. Remember 20-30 years ago, when it was assumed that children could not be depressed, based on the idea that the superego is not mature in children? I was one of the children who slipped through the cracks. Thanks a lot, mental health industry. Thank you, neurobiology! So tell me exactly why a two year old can't be bipolar?

CliveUK, like it or not, you ARE a bag of neurotransmitters. Think of it in terms of other body chemicals--e.g. dopamine. Dopamine is not what makes a ballerina graceful, but if her dopamine were out of whack, she wouldn't be able to dance at all. If you were found to be diabetic, would you decline insulin, and just try to work it out yourself? I think not. And people who are mentally ill are--guess what--not thinking straight.

Maureeno--from my experience, people who are depressed do not know it. Psychiatry has really dropped the ball. If it takes a pharmaceutical company's advertising for people to consider that there may be a biological basis for their distress, I'm all for it.

Unfortunately, I got stuck listening to a horseshit clinical psychologist who tried to guilt me about taking Prozac. "If you just take a pill, you're not dealing with any of the problems. The problems are still there. You're just medicating yourself, that's all." Wow, was she a useless b!%ch.

CliveUK · Nov 10, 2002

I think I said I hoped I was more than just a bunch of neurotransmitters. I personally don't believe the neurobiological 'explanation' of mental distress is the whole picture - the science is too flawed. Too use your example, low serotonin is thought to be a feature of depression, but who can say with certainty that the low serotonin caused the depression or whether the low serotonin is caused by the depression? It's just a hypothesis, not fact.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe medication has a role to play in helping people through their distress - a role to play. To use your diabetes analogy, yes, insulin can restore the balance but, if the person has a poor diet and doesn't take enough care of themselves, the insulin isn't going to stop them potentially getting diabetic neuropathy, leg ulcers, blindness &c &c.

I have enormous concerns about children's distress being medicalised and pathologised in this way. How do you disentangle these "symptoms" from the expression of distress caused by familial, environmental, social and developmental factors? If all you do is medicate that distress away, what kind of trouble are you storing up for the adults these kids will become? There have to be better, kinder ways of dealing with childhood mental health problems than just filling them up with chemicals.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Nov 10, 2002

howdy yall

from deep in the heart of texas

Nicely put Clive UK.

It was about 25 years ago they took alcohol adds and cigarette adds off of TV. Now they have replaced them with medication adds. If your a little down take some drugs and you will feel better. If your not performing up to snuff take some viagra. If you want to quit smoking take some more drugs. If you have the cramps we have a whole buncha drugs for you.

Take alcohol off the air and replace it with drug therapy.

I agree with you CliveUK

That was nicely put sjoe

ahh cmon jump in jnette, we want to hear from you also

Maureeno my wife is a social psychologist and she agrees with your commentary

doo wah ditty

researchrabbit · Nov 10, 2002

The problem with "sadness for two weeks" is that that is not what depression is. Anyone can be sad, after a death, a job loss, a close friend moving...but being "sad" is not the same as being "depressed". To be depressed is to not only feel sad, but to be down and depressed and lose interest in things they used to take pleasure in. In addition, there have to be disturbances in other areas of the person's life. I think most people would agree that someone who goes to bed and doesn't get out of it for two weeks and doesn't care about their job, family, life itself...needs treatment after two weeks.

Advertising for allergy meds is one thing, psychiatric meds another...will we have "are you hearing voices that aren't there?" ads next?

Diagnosing children is tricky because family dynamics can really feed into a child's behavior. Bipolar is tricky to diagnose anyway, and a 2-year-old can't really give you that much information about moods and mania. And what parents observe is not necessarily what the child feels, especially if having their child be ill makes them feel important or needed in some way.

I used to teach middle school before I was a nurse. You could have labeled any one of my kids as "bipolar". I would prefer a roomful of manic or psychotic adults over a roomful of 7th and 8th graders ANY DAY.

mageean · Nov 11, 2002

Does Child Protection not apply in USA. Diagnosis and prescribing of major psychiatric medication to a child is ,in my view, abuse! prescribing at this early stage may well prevent "normal" developement.