So, I thought I'd ask here. There is someone in my clinical group who, for reasons best left unsaid, I am not fond of. I can tolerate him, but he's just not someone I would ever go share a beer with. Because of that, I always question my concerns regarding him...because I don't like him, it's easy to see him as wrong or bad or whatever, you know what I mean?
But something he has done twice concerns me. The first instance took place about half-way through the semester, and the other took place last week.
First instance: we were in post conference in a doctor's conference room. There was a computer there, and I don't know if it was on, or if someone from our group turned it on. Either way, when I walked in, and while waiting for our instructor to come, this guy proceeded to give the rest of us a slide show of his patient that week's serious tib/fib fx. The pt's name and number was on her xrays, and the xrays, in our system, are not kept at the same place as the chart...in other words, he went into a different department's records, put in his pt's name or MRUN number, and pulled up the info. There was no purpose to this demonstration; he is not an instructor, and to me, showing people who were not involved in her care was a violation of her privacy. But was it? My study group and I talked about it, and while we felt it was wrong, we weren't sure if it was a violation...but I know that if it were my sister, I'd not want a bunch of students without an instructor oogling her xrays just because.
The second, and perhaps more concerning, issue, took place last week. His patient was in a serious, serious accident. Broken bones all over. Lots of bruising and pain, and the patient was a difficult one because he was hurting in the extreme. My colleague came in with a photo taken from the 'net of the accident scene...showed everyone while we were scrubbing up and getting ready to go on the floor; made a point to show where the man's motorcycle ended up under the semi. No learning there, and no reason to show it to fellow students other than the 'ugh' factor. Bear in mind we live and work in a huge city, and that horrific accidents happen with sad frequency.
What bothered me about that instance is that the only way my colleague could've gotten the photo is by researching the accident on the 'net. Which means running a search for either the pt's name (which we take home to prepare for clinical worksheets; but we are only supposed to take initials...), or the accident itself, or whatever. Which means he used the patient's name in a manner that had nothing to do with creating a care plan, or using it to determine anything that had anything to do with patient care. At least, not as far as I can see. Again, to me, this is a violation of HIPAA, and it worries me.
My study group and I talked it over, and didn't come to a conclusion other than this guy is creepy. But I'm still pretty bothered by his actions...and wanted to run it past you all to see if that's a HIPAA violation, or if I'm simply letting personal opinion color my judgment. No matter what the issue, I just can't see myself running an internet search for a particular patient's information, let alone printing off a photo of the accident to show colleagues.
So, please be honest. Were these violations, or am I being judgmental because I don't like him? I am aware that opinions are often colored because of personal dislike, so be honest on that accord, too.
But he shouldn't have been discussing the patient and his injuries, period. That's why showing the pictures and articles of the accident is questionable, at best.
Jolie, I appreciate your contributions, and understand your point.
The sticky wicket for me, is that unless my colleague ran the man's name in a google search, the information just isn't readily available. I live in a huge city, and we all drive. MVAs with motorcycles v. semis are not, sadly, rare. Shoot, 5 car pile ups with multiple fatalities barely make the news...so if one ran a search for MVA motorcycle v. semi, or any permutation thereof, it most likely would have yielded - oh, say several dozen or so in a close span of time.
Obviously, there was a photo of it on the net, so that wasn't the issue; privacy is not at question there. I suppose what I'm thinking is that for my colleague to identify the correct accident, he used a name and that was the violation. There truly isn't anything a first semester student can learn from a photograph, nor can he then teach his fellow students anything. But the use of the name to locate the accident photos is what I'm concerned with.
I can't prove that it happened that way...I can only relay what he said he'd done...ran a search and printed off a photo. But in this city, accidents are typical and serious accidents are normal...so it's not necessarily something he can discover without the use of personally identifying information, such as a name.
You've spent a good deal of time talking about this dude behind his back. First, with your 'study group' and now here, on an internet site visited by millions of people. I wonder...during your hunt to find fault with your 'creepy' classmate, did you ever notice your own porch needs sweeping?
You've spent a good deal of time talking about this dude behind his back. First, with your 'study group' and now here, on an internet site visited by millions of people. I wonder...during your hunt to find fault with your 'creepy' classmate, did you ever notice your own porch needs sweeping?
i'd say she covered that, when she admitted that her personal feelings might be coloring her opinion.....
I think she should stop and consider why she's so intrigued with this fellow, and so determined to get him into trouble. She's a middle-aged woman in training to be a professional nurse...I wonder what type of coworker she's going to be, if she gets this involved in the perceived faults of this one student.
I don't buy the whole "yeah, I talked about him to a million readers on AN, and wished he would get into trouble at school for violating HIPAA, but it's ok because I admitted I don't like the dude!".
Anyone who obtains medical information is in violation of HIPAA unless they had a "need to know". You did not have a need to know. He did not have a need to know about the pictures and certainly no need to share them. I think the Instructor ought to be made aware and then give another lecture on the importance of knowing and following HIPAA guidelines. Your malpractice insurance may not cover incidences when federal law is defied.
You've spent a good deal of time talking about this dude behind his back. First, with your 'study group' and now here, on an internet site visited by millions of people. I wonder...during your hunt to find fault with your 'creepy' classmate, did you ever notice your own porch needs sweeping?
Yes, I'm middle aged. Yes, I'm first semester. Yes, I've discussed it both here and in study group. If I were hunting to find a problem, I would also add the lying, the unpreparedness, and the general difficulty people have with this person. However, that was not my concern.
As Morte put it, I am concerned that personal opinion colors my view of what happened. If I were out to get him in trouble, I'd be at the Dean's office with a whole laundry list of things. As it is, I'm not. Rather, I'm here to run it by people not involved, all relevant issues on the table, to see if I am indeed not seeing things correctly; or, if in fact personal opinion is a concern. I *am* concerned that motives are less than 'pure', which is why I started the thread in the first place.
What I find interesting is that this thread's opinion has almost indentically mirrored the discussion at study group.
While I must admit I find your allusion to me being a gossiping, 'middle-aged' person that may make a poor co-worker in the future both offensive and unnecessary, your point is taken. I am also finding it quite difficult to not be very defensive towards your post...so I shall close.
I will add this, however. Is it your contention that I should perhaps take precipitious action against this person, while knowing there's a personal element involved, without examining myself as well as the circumstances, and perhaps cost someone his seat in school simply because I find him less than personable and trustworthy? Or shall I simply look the other way when possible violations occur, both now and when I am on the floor, which compromise patient privacy?
And with that, Borta, I wish you the best of the holiday season.
Anyone who obtains medical information is in violation of HIPAA unless they had a "need to know". You did not have a need to know. He did not have a need to know about the pictures and certainly no need to share them.
Photos published in a popular newspaper or on the internet are not protected health information.
I'm not trying to defend this student, who seems to have an abnormal fascination with the gory details of his patient's accident. Nor am I trying to be contrary to the OP who seems to have an abnormal fascination with her classmate's behavior. But HIPAA does not extend to information readily available in the popular press.
If Brittney Spears was your patient, and you went into the breakroom and accessed her blood alcohol level and tox screen results to share with your co-workers who were not involved in her care, that would be a HIPAA violation. If you went home and googled "Brittney Spears" and came back to work the next day with an article from the newspaper detailing her bizarre antics at a Hollywood party, you have not violated HIPAA. I don't argue that would be inappropriate, but not a violation of federal law.
Rather, I'm here to run it by people not involved, all relevant issues on the table
Except for the other side. The person you're writing about has no recourse for defending himself.
I didn't mean my posts to be offensive to you, but I don't see the fairness of your one-sided accusations against this student, nor in your collusion with your classmates to find him at fault.
I think this is the perfect place for such a discussion, whether the woman inititating it is middle-aged or not.
And I take no offense at someone being called middle-aged, as I'm just flat-out old.
Jolie, of course you're right that googling the accident is not a HIPAA violation. That's been said. But if people don't know that Britney is on your ward and you bring that article and and tell them? You betcha, it's a violation.
Except for the other side. The person you're writing about has no recourse for defending himself.
I didn't mean my posts to be offensive to you, but I don't see the fairness of your one-sided accusations against this student, nor in your collusion with your classmates to find him at fault.
Merry Christmas to you, as well.
-Bortaz
I hear you, I really do. And yes, I was offended by your comments. I understand what you're saying, and I don't agree; for how do I learn about both myself as well as the rules, if I don't examine them objectively, and if unable to do so, bring it to a group of folks who can? Nor do I find your comment in regards to my age or my ability to be a good co-worker to be constructive. Rather, I'd ask you this: would you prefer to have a colleage who looked the other way if patient privacy was compromised?
I'd rather say you wouldn't. You don't strike me as that sort of person. But that is indeed the inference I've taken. Now, we all know what aSSume means, so I'd rather not assume. But that is the feeling your post gave me.
Bear in mind, I'm of the opinion that it's 'all good', as they say. I am open to self-examination, and self-revelation, whether or not I agree. I will, as always, take what I can from all comments and move forward.
I think she should stop and consider why she's so intrigued with this fellow, and so determined to get him into trouble. She's a middle-aged woman in training to be a professional nurse...I wonder what type of coworker she's going to be, if she gets this involved in the perceived faults of this one student.
I don't buy the whole "yeah, I talked about him to a million readers on AN, and wished he would get into trouble at school for violating HIPAA, but it's ok because I admitted I don't like the dude!".
I don't think this is about trying to get this guy in trouble. I think it is about concern over the confidentiality and dignity of the patients involved. If this was your family member, would you feel comfortable with the actions of this student sharing pictures and x-rays for no reason?
LovingLearning has presented the information as objectively as possible. She has not taken any actions to get this student in trouble. I think asking a nursing forum and discussing with the study group were appropriate actions to take in trying to decide what to do. She has only discussed the information about violating HIPAA, and not gone on a long gossipy tangent about what else drives her crazy about her colleague. Her heart is in the right place, and I find it offensive to classify her as a middle-aged troublemaker/gossiper. She is looking out for the best interests of the patients. I would be glad to have a nurse like her who advocates for my privacy.
SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN
10,263 Posts
But he shouldn't have been discussing the patient and his injuries, period. That's why showing the pictures and articles of the accident is questionable, at best.