HESI is Wrong ! Let's File Suit

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Mar 29, 2007

I believe you mentioned that you attended a community college program. The inability to tighten admission standards, or the unwillingness of administrators to do so is a problem in many community college nursing programs. The basic philosophy of community colleges is to accept everyone who wishes to advance their education, including those who wouldn't qualify for study in the university setting. This "open-door" philosophy of the community college is in direct opposition to the push for elevating admission standards to the nursing program. My guess is that the director of the nursing program wanted to tighten admission standards for nursing students, and was over-ruled by the community college administrators who believe that everyone who meets basic criteria should have the opportunity to "try" nursing. (Admission based on ranking of qualifications vs lottery admission.) Problem is that many of those with borderline qualifications who "try" nursing drop out along the way, taking up space that could have gone to better-qualified candidates who would have had a better chance of success. The community college administrators don't see that as a problem though, because they have a long list of alternates waiting to snatch up those now-vacant seats, and don't lose a cent of tuition money.
I attended a program that had different admission standards for different groups of students. Causasian females, who comprise the majority of nurses, were required to have a minimum 3.3 GPA in pre-requisites for admission to the nursing program. Males and persons of color were admitted with a 2.8 GPA. Although the ultimate goal of increasing minority representation in nursing was admirable, it didn't work. The attrition rate among those admitted with a 2.8 GPA was much higher than those admitted with a 3.3 GPA. That certainly does not indicate that males and persons of color are less capable of becoming nurses than white women, but it does indicate that higher admission standards translate into higher graduation rates, and in the case of my class, a 96% NCLEX pass rate.

I agree that many of these CC administrators have a philosophy that community colleges should support the COMMUNITY.

I agree with that philosophy but completely disagree with the goals to attain it.

1st: you do nobody any favor to preferentially enter them into a program they are not capable of finishing. This is ESPECIALLY true due to the ease with which programs subsequently drop students because they bear no penalty to do so.

2nd: those colleges do better to support their communities by providing as many successful graduates (graduates capable of passing NCLEX) as possible. Those newly minted nurses are the goal, not education for its own sake.

As such, they should consider excessive attrition a failure to meet their community's need.

So long as there are waiting lists, students are 'fungible', or interchangeable. While there might be a huge specific advantage for admissions for any given student, there is no compelling advantage for one student over the other, at least on an arbitrary basis. It does not meet the community's need to support any student arbitrarily above another, but rather, to support those students more likely to meet the needs of the community AS NURSES over others less likely to fill that need.

The programs focus, once a student is in the programs, on quality and are indeed, measured by that standard in the form of NCLEX. They should also be called to account for quantity: percent passing as a total percentage of space available. That requires a focus on the quality of a candidate BEFORE matriculation into the programs.

~faith,

Timothy.

Sheri257 · Mar 29, 2007

I agree that it probably was the CC philosophy, so to speak, that spiked efforts to raise the admission standards.

And it probably does cost the taxpayers a lot of money. I don't know how it breaks down for students who fail but, it does cost about $30,000 in state subsidies total to get a student through nursing school

Because of the backlog, local hospitals are now paying my CC to take more students and, because there aren't state subsidies for those students ... the hospitals have to pay that $30K.

Ironically ... even though the CC admission standards haven't changed, the hospital GPA standards for their sponsored students are much higher ... because they don't want to lose that $30K investment. Those students have to make better grades to get in.

:typing

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Mar 29, 2007

My school did try to tighten up the admission standards but, the higher ups wouldn't let them. I remember they spent a lot of money trying to make it happen but, to no avail.
I don't know all of the details but, I do know that they tried.

I discussed this at length with one of my former instructors, and she said that if they even tried to impose any kind of admission criteria, that they would lose funding.

I like the idea of imposing an attrition rate limit.

But I wonder how the instructors would feel about it? They are already hard to come by, and are working very hard. I wonder if this would be insulting to them, and cause them to quit, thus increasing the burden.

The attrition rate limit would have to come from the BON, no school would ever impose this on themselves.

llg, PhD, RN · Mar 29, 2007

I strongly agree that the problems should be addressed as the student enters and progresses through the program rather than waiting until graduation. If admissions philosophies can't be changed, then other options should be considered.

For example, students could be admitted as they are now -- but only allowed to progress if they achieve at a certain level. Those who don't meet the requirements (which might be assessed through a test like HESI), would be offered remedial help to improve their ability to learn the material and pass the tests. As it stands now, too many students are simply given a "B" or a "C" and allowed to move into the next course.

While admissions policies that are too lax may be the beginnings of the problem, the fact that these students are allowed to progress in the program is how the problem continues. If it can't be stopped at admissions, then the focus needs to be on progression. The requirements need to built into each course (or at least a few courses) within the program so that people are forced to meet the standards along the way.

As it stands now, courses get "dummied down" so that the course failure rate is lower than it should be in some programs (but not all, of course). Even the really good students get short-changed because their course has been watered down and they don't get as good of an education as they (and their patients) deserve.

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Mar 29, 2007

i have decided even if i pass the hesi i am going to retain a lawyer and sue the college for it's practice and i think that if they are going to use hesi that they should just factor it into your grade and not ruin your life over one stinking test.

did you know about the hesi during your orientation?

i remember one of my instructors saying something that i find worth mentioning here. nobody made you choose this school for nursing school. nobody made you go to nursing school. you can't just sue because you don't like how it goes.

i bolded one of your comments above. where you mention something about one stinking test. are you aware that our entire career rests on one stinking test?

will people start sueing when they can no longer pass the nclex? or sue each time the passing standard is raised?

instead of fighting the system, get yourself the hesi study guide and put some energy into studying. the hesi gave you a printout of all your weaknesses after you took it, right? focus on the areas that you were weakest in.

mstigerlily · Mar 29, 2007

different schools have different requirements, you can find out about them before you started. i assume you knew you were supposed to take the hesi and pass before graduation so you've known about this for awhile, right? if you knew about this and agreed to these conditions when you applied for the program you may not have a case, not sure.

i don't agree with forcing you to pass hesi to sit for the boards necessarily but our whole class took and passed it so i don't think it's an unreasonable request. in fact, i worked my first two night shifts ever, went to sleep at 9am, then got up at 1pm, rushed over to take the test, finished it up in about 2 hrs and scored over 1000 i think don't remember exactly but it was over what i needed. i found it fairly straightforward and simple. then again i passed the nclex the first time too, 75 questions, took me a little over an hour, i found it fairly simple too, certainly not as challenging as some of our tests in school. however, i started planning ahead and found out all i could about everything way ahead of time, interviewed former students, new nurses, bought books, study guides, you have had all this time to study for hesi - have to done the same or did it just sneak up on you?

i go to school in montgomery co. texas and have done okay in the nursing program making mainly bs through out the course, but i am not good at taking nursing test. comming from a trade background i have found that when i look at the rationals to the questions i miss it is usually that i thought of things in a common sense way not a test way. that said i have suffered through and i am suppose to graduate in may and then comes hesi. i took the test monday, march 26 and missed passing by 53 points. i can take the test again on 4/27 but i don't like my chances any better at passing it then either, i just don't test well or i at least don't nursing test well. what gives collages the right to keep you from taking the boards if you have completed 2yrs of their bs? isn't the hesi about keeping the pass rate on the first try numbers up for the college? so they look good. i have decided even if i pass the hesi i am going to retain a lawyer and sue the college for it's practice and i think that if they are going to use hesi that they should just factor it into your grade and not ruin your life over one stinking test. i would like to hear some of your options on whether or not ya'll think we should bring a national class action lawsuit to stop this madness. some students in ca. sued and won the right to sit for the board even though they didn't pass hesi and i believe that we deserve that right too. (

navynurse06 · Mar 30, 2007

Gasguy1960,

I said nothing about your future employers looking at your HESI score or your NCLEX score. Heck I dont even know what I scored on my NCLEX; I just know I passed it. I've been a nurse for over a yr so I do know that all hospitals care about is if you have your license.

The 1st point that I was trying to make is that you made it a big element in your OP and your argument against HESI that you couldn't pass it, or have trouble passing it b/c you aren't good at taking nursing test. And I said well...(with no disrespect) if you have trouble with nursing test how do you expect to pass boards. HESI and NCLEX are both very similar test. One reason my school gave HESI was to prepare us for eh NCLEX. Did I like taking it...no....but I did have a good idea of what to expect from NCLEX.

But let me say it again, schools shouldn't use it has a weeding out tool.

gasguy1960 · Mar 30, 2007

thanks for the reply mstigerlily. we never new any thing about hesi until about the last week of the first year when we took a bench mark hesi that didn't count but where told then about this one in second year. i am glad that you did so well on your test and just fyi i probably own every nclex study guide known to man and nothing snuck up on me. my point is that this test is being used in the wrong way. it should be used to uncover your weakness or the faculty's weakness as you progress and help you, what it is doing is masking the failure of the institutions to do their job.

gasguy1960 · Mar 30, 2007

cardiacrn2006 did you take hesi? what kind of rock do you think that i crawl from under every day? of course i know that this one stinking test has the balance of my career in it. that's the problem and not just with me but a lot of really good students that maybe just don't test as well as some people, probably like you. i will pass hesi, but i will still push for change for i am determined to do something for the good of nursing and not be the nurse that wants to eat their young!

EmerNurse, BSN, RN · Mar 30, 2007

I have to agree with Timothy about admissions processes.

When I got into nursing school, I happened to fall into the timeframe when they'd just upped the admissions requirements so that selection was based on GPA, the TABE test and the NET test. I finished my prereq's with an A average, knocked out the TABE and NET and got in on my first application try. My particular class did very well, I might add.

Right after that, they went BACK to the first-come-first-in process, where if you had the minimum GPA of like 2.5, and got your application in (dated) first, you got in. I believe they said it was because too many people had trouble passing the TABE and NET. The TABE required 12.9's on everything except Algabra (I think, going from memory) which required like an 11.

My nursing program used the ATI and every semester we took a subject-specific ATI test, with the knowledge that we'd have to pass a comprehensive ATI at the end of the program. It wasn't a surprise, and those who had problems with the early semester ATI tests were identified early and offered remediation and extra help/tutoring. All in our, our nursing class didn't do badly, attrition-wise. A few left for personal reasons of family etc, a couple just hated it, one girl married a rich guy and didn't have to work, etc. Few people actually failed out though a few repeated a class.

From the college's perspective, why NOT let students repeat classes over and over? The college gets tuition for EACH time you take the class, after all.

I think CC's need to go back to a high admission standard to fill nursing seats. If there's going to be a waiting list for seats, those seats should be filled with those most likely to succeed first.

cardiacRN2006, ADN, RN · Mar 31, 2007

cardiacrn2006 did you take hesi? what kind of rock do you think that i crawl from under every day? of course i know that this one stinking test has the balance of my career in it. that's the problem and not just with me but a lot of really good students that maybe just don't test as well as some people, probably like you. i will pass hesi, but i will still push for change for i am determined to do something for the good of nursing and not be the nurse that wants to eat their young!

yes, i took 3 hesi's. an enterance hesi, one after second semester, and one after my last semester. i also had to pass in order to graduate. i made a 1098.

and i was talking about the nclex, when i was talking about 'one stinkin test' .....

moongirl · Mar 31, 2007

However, I posing a question to the OP (and I mean no disrespect in saying this) but if you aren't good at taking nursing test how do you expect to pass NCLEX? Believe it or not, I found NCLEX and HESI to be very similar. NCLEX question are posed the same way HESI questions are.
I don't think HESI should prevent people from graduated or be a tool to weed people out. But it is a good tool to prepare students for NCLEX.
Just adding my 2cents!

yes.. i was wondering the same thing. Who are you going to sue when you dont pass the NCLEX? I have been told that the HESI and NCLEX are very very very similar...

If it is stated in policy that you were given upon acceptance into the program that a HESI score of ___ is required to graduate, you accepted those terms when you became their student. It is not a way for instructors to "get out of teaching" the material, but to show you where you need to focus studying so that you can sucessfully pass the NCLEX