Here's what AAs really think of CRNAs

Specialties CRNA

Published

And this comes from the PRESIDENT of the American Society of Anesthesiologist Assistants

Again, assertions that AAs and CRNAs function at the same level -absolutely misleading.

And, what's with "anesthesia nurse"? If it sounds condescending in print, can you imagine how it would sound out of his mouth? What arrogance.

At least there is a phone number listed at the end of the article. Let's call Rob and let him know what we think of his little article!

Read carefully, SRNAs, this is a grim foreboding...

Licensed anesthesiologist assistants help access to medical care

By Rob Wagner

MY VIEW

Re: "Don't weaken the standards for anesthesia providers" (My View, April 11).

Maybe you or someone you know has had surgery delayed. Perhaps hospitals in your

area have closed operating rooms as they have in Miami, Jacksonville, Tampa and

elsewhere in Florida.

One reason for growing problems of this nature for patients is a shortage of

anesthesia providers. These are the assistants who help

physician-anesthesiologists perform the critical task of putting you to sleep

before surgery.

There is a common-sense solution rapidly making progress in the Florida

Legislature and around the country, which is to license anesthesiologist

assistants (called AAs). Key legislative action is expected today in Florida's

House Health Care Committee on HB 1381/SB 2332 and it is important that

lawmakers support it.

They need to be assured that this legislation will not weaken standards because

AAs are highly trained and perform the same function as anesthesia nurses. AAs

like myself serve patients in 16 states and have impeccable safety records. AAs

have worked with a high level of safety for 30 years in Georgia and Ohio.

AAs are required to have three times the hands-on, clinical training than are

most anesthesia nurses who currently assist anesthesiologists. Before we are

allowed to enter AA school, we must take the same courses physicians take as

pre-med students. Nurses do not do that. In fact, as the chief anesthetist at

St. Joseph's Hospital in Atlanta, I am in charge of both AAs and anesthesia

nurses.

If you are "going under," who would you rather have assisting the

anesthesiologist; someone trained to work directly with him or her, or a nurse?

We enjoy our professional relationships with our nursing colleagues. Yet nursing

organizations in Florida continue to misinform, even scare the public, calling

our profession "new" and "experimental."

Try telling that to the prestigious Emory University in Atlanta or Case Western

in Cleveland, which have been training AAs for more than three decades. Or try

to tell that to boards of medicine that oversee AAs in the states in which we

practice and whose members readily vouch for our safety record.

Try telling that to Medicare, the nation's largest health insurer, which

reimburses AAs and anesthesia nurses at the same rate. This means our skill

levels are viewed equally. And tell the insurance companies. They charge no

difference in fees between anesthesia nurses and AAs,

meaning our safety records are equal. Try telling that to the Florida Medical

Association, American Medical Association and American Society of

Anesthesiologists, whose members resoundingly support our working in Florida. In

the era of malpractice crisis, doctors are certainly not going to support

"experimental" health care providers.

Why, then, would the anesthesia nurses be opposed to this? In a word, money.

Because of nurse shortages, their salaries are artificially high, up to $150,000

in Florida. If you made that kind of living, wouldn't you try to keep the

competition out?

This nursing shortage is well documented on the Web sites of Florida schools

that train anesthesia nurses, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services,

and yes, even on the anesthesia nurses' own Web site, http://www.aana.org, where the

shortage is called "serious" and "acute."

To help relieve the problem, two institutions, the University of Florida and

Nova Southeastern, are ready to open special schools for anesthesiologist

assistants in Florida. Would those schools offer programs if they didn't think

AAs are in great demand? Would they risk their reputations on an "experimental"

profession? Of course not.

One AA can mean five more patients per day will get their surgery. That's 1,200

patients per year treated with the help of only one AA. If you are or know one

of those patients, I'm sure you would be grateful to the Florida Legislature for

passing this common-sense legislation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rob Wagner is chief anesthetist at St. Joseph's Hospital in Atlanta and

president of the American Academy of Anesthesiologist Assistants, PO Box 13978

Tallahassee, FL 32317 Phone: 656-8848.

Why would AA's displace CRNA's? Isn't the demand for anethesia, as well as all health care services in general, expected to grow with the aging baby boom generation in the next 20 years? Isn't it possible that there's room for both?

:confused:

nice article from the Florida Papers how AA's via MDA's got their collective feet in the door

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/tuesday/opinion_04175f9ff233c01e00db.html

MONEY!!!!!!!

this a vauge discription of classes. what does "pre-med" classes mean. I always thought of "pre-med" as code for I dont' know what the hell i wanna do but i like science.

anatomy, check

physiology check

micro check

chem check

nurtition check

phycology check

human developent check

pathophysiology again check

what is the diffrence in what we do and what they do?????

physics?? lol.. is that it. physics.. hmmmmmmmm

1 yr General Chemistry

1 yr Organic Chemistry

1 yr General Physics

1 Yr Biology

1 yr Calculus varies

1 yr English

Some require Biochemistry

Every course you listed besides Chemistry is not considered a medical school prerequisite. The courses that I listed are just the basics. Most med schools expect you to take upper level science courses.

they require you to have a bachelors degree. and in what?????

as has been shown/discussed here mostly its in music or social work.

we've had english,,, pluueeesss

as deepz and swupgass are saying,

to me its not how good you are now. its DID YOU PAY THE PRICE.

I dont see anyone else in this industry paying the price we have. phyisical, emotional, mental I still am not over the constant beet down I've recieved from family, friends, pateints, and phycians (can we stop calling them doctors it makes me sick... their not)

anyway its very early and I just woke up, the filter isn't working yet in my head so I may edit this later.

plust weve had all that other stuff, I ve had a year of chem actually more now. and biology yes, calculus it somthing you made up.

Why would AA's displace CRNA's? Isn't the demand for anethesia, as well as all health care services in general, expected to grow with the aging baby boom generation in the next 20 years? Isn't it possible that there's room for both?

Lizz - i don't know how old you are - or how much you know about this profession yet - but you (if you plan on entering the profession and promoting it) might want to lose the naivity. The ASA (like Loisane stated) has tried for decades to oust CRNA's - when it couldn't acheive that ....suprise...AA's enter the picture... right now, today - there is not a risk of displacement ....but you must look toward the future...their push right now is opening more schools, increasing the area of practice - to what end do you think those goals might be for???

Florida's vote had nothing to do w/ patient safety - it had to do w/ the fact that the ASA has some of the highest paid lawyers and strongest lobbiests in the nation... and unless WE - CNRA"S - educate the public as to what is really going on ...and who they are really receiving care from - then it will be to our own detriment.

as far as pay...and job availability...it is a simply supply vs demand...they flood the market w/ AA's - there goes not only job availability but also $$... you say that there is a shortage - and yes, right now there is ...but if you were up to date on the AANA's initiatives for the year you would know that the goal is to increase the # of programs, to increase the funding for SRNA's to assist them in their efforts for school...so they are addressing the shortage by attempting to recruit and make it easier to bear the burden of bills during school.....

I agree w/ deepz....GeorgiaAA - i have no personal problem w/ you - i am sure you are a very capable provider...but you come to a nursing site...and tell SRNA's, CRNA's that our practice is equal when it is in fact not.....you tell us how hostile we are after you post that AA's are coming to take over our states...HELLO....what did you think you would get, a rollover? You go to another country and help kids - i have great respect for that - even though you are practicing outside (legally) of your scope of practice according to your licensure....i will say again - the ASA, AA's blurr the lines of distinction to attempt to show an equality - it is misleading and false - and eventually the AANA will be able to show that to the public....

How about "someones sugar daddy" hehe

Personally I loved my anestesiologist, And everytime I had surgery was before school and I didnt ask credentials being out side of field. I just knew they gave me some good S$%# and I love them for it

Who actually did your anesthesia? are you sure it was personally done by that MDA, or just saw a white coat appear, do you pre op chat, then turn you over to a CRNA to actually do the work.

In bigger "Team" places, you may be so doped up that you don't even recall who actually does your anesthesia. That is one of the little "tricks" used to do ghost anesthesia. Let people think because an MDA sees them preop, says "I'll be doing your anesthesia", dopes the person up, and the case is actually done by a CRNA, or AA, while the MDA goes back to the stock ticker. Or Donuts.

Most times, the actual anesthesia "doer" is setting up for the case, the MDA sees the patient, and the patient is dragged ito the room with no idea of who is really doing the work.

did they have donuts on their breath?

as far as pay...and job availability...it is a simply supply vs demand...they flood the market w/ AA's - there goes not only job availability but also $$... you say that there is a shortage - and yes, right now there is ...but if you were up to date on the AANA's initiatives for the year you would know that the goal is to increase the # of programs, to increase the funding for SRNA's to assist them in their efforts for school...so they are addressing the shortage by attempting to recruit and make it easier to bear the burden of bills during school.....

Athomas91, I am confused by your message. First you say that "they" (I guess you mean the MDAs) are flooding the market with AAs but It has been established on this thread that there are only two schools producing AAs and only around 700 practicing from the past 30 years. And that this huge push is going to flood the market and drop CRNA salaries. Then you go on to tell us that the AANA is pushing to open more programs and aid in the recruitment of new CRNAs. How is the opening of new CRNA programs going to help me get a better salary and fight the future overabundance of anesthesia providers?

Lizz - i don't know how old you are - or how much you know about this profession yet - but you (if you plan on entering the profession and promoting it) might want to lose the naivity. The ASA (like Loisane stated) has tried for decades to oust CRNA's - when it couldn't acheive that ....suprise...AA's enter the picture... right now, today - there is not a risk of displacement ....but you must look toward the future...their push right now is opening more schools, increasing the area of practice - to what end do you think those goals might be for???

I was going to respond to Liz, but I couldn't have said it any better.

You SRNAs and wannabes are the future of our profession. Us old timers are doing all we can (at least some of us are!) to hang onto your legacy. But help us out here. You simply must not buy into the ASA BS.

I know some of us sound hostile and caustic. When you are in the trenches of anesthesia, and face the battles on a daily basis, you will have a better understanding of where that anger comes from. And while it might be counter productive to express that level of frustration to your legislator, I think some posters are using it here to motivate. The ASA paints a pretty picture, but look for the little man behind the curtain (Wizard of Oz).

loisane crna

I can definitely say that I would never allow an AA to deliver my anesthesia. And I definitely prefer a CRNA over a MDA, any day of the week.

:balloons: :balloons:

And will never let a MDA resident in the room...................scary thought....

not even to cover for a bathroom break.

At a facility that will remain unmentioned by name, they had some aneshtesia residents brought over from another facility. The MDAs were used to having CRNAs there and not residents. These newbies were left alone in rooms and all of their patients were taken to the PACU intubated. One even asked a friend of mine to show him how to work the anesthesia machine. such as "How do you turn it on?"

No thank you...................... :uhoh21:

I have an idea on how the AANA can stop the whole model of an "Anesthesia Team" where the MDA "sits in his office and "checks the stock ticker". If evry CRNA refused to work for an MDA and only practiced on there own or in CRNA groups there supply of AAs could not fill the void. And the AANA could force the MDAs into not supporting the legislation for AAs and kill off the profession. And I am guessing that the AANA (or specific regulating body) has the power to pull or refuse to renew the license for any CRNA tries to work with a MDA. It has been said many times that there is plenty of demand for anesthesia, so why not make a play and force the removal of the entire AA issue. And next year once this is done we can use the same power to push all of the medical schools (that are turning out those pesky MDAs that compete with us) to convert their Anesthesiologist programs to CRNA programs. Then we will be unstoppable!!!:devil:

as far as pay...and job availability...it is a simply supply vs demand...they flood the market w/ AA's - there goes not only job availability but also $$...

If, by chance, the ASA floods the market with AA's, that's life. It's called capitalism. The same capitalism that provides the great salaries for CRNA's. If all you can do is whine about the competition, you're going to lose.

Nobody is trying to stop tech companies from exporting high paying IT jobs to India because a bunch of American tech workers lost their $100,000 a year jobs.

Why do you think you deserve more consideration? They too are an educated work force that invested heavily in their education. And they're screwed. But nobody is trying to stop the forces of capitalism on their behalf.

And nobody is going to feel sorry for CRNA's if they're only making $80,000 a year with AA's in the marketplace, instead of $120,000 or more, when the average American makes lot less than that.

The ASA might have tried to take control of your practice in previous years, but that's not on the table anymore. If they want their own assistants, and it fulfills a need without any patient safety issues, it is a free country, afterall.

The ASA is greedy. I'll give you that. But you guys are too. In the end, that's your only argument, and it's lame. It's all about the money and the fact that AA competition might drive down your salaries. I don't blame you for complaining, actually, but don't expect everybody else to feel sorry for you until you can come up with a better argument that's backed up by evidence.

The AANA may be making promises to remedy the situtation, but there is a shortage, and there's no good reason not allow AA alternatives if you can't prove patient endangerment.

In the end, it's supposed to be about the patients, not your salaries.

;)

is it a new record that we have reached 13 pages in two days? the thread only started at 05-03-2004, 10:20 pm

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