Herbal/alternative and modern medicine can come together as a safe practice?

zenman · Aug 28, 2005

hello,
In conclusion, how can one properly adminster herbal therapy without causing harm and to learn about herbal therapy?
Buttons

You are not the only person who has had the experience you describe. That is why many medical schools are offering courses on herbs and their interactions with western meds. I plan to take such a course offered at UAB NP program.

grannynurse FNP student · Aug 28, 2005

hello,
what are "TT Practitioner?" What is under the umbrella term Holistic? How can one be effective in implementing alternative health to patients and show the effectiveness? Are there courses in holistics for the health care providers? How are mds, nps and pas handling the usage of alternative medicines by thier patients? Are the MDS, NPS and PAs respecting the choices of their patients and are they changing them to modern medications when in the hospitals? What are the implementations of prescribing herbal therapy in the medical arena? I know 21 questions here.
I know that herbal therapy can cause serious injuries if use incorrectly. For example, my dumb butt took garlic pills bid and I am on coumadin and bled out. Garlic is a blood thinner and coumadin is too....so I place myself into a bad situation...I was thin out too much....bled from my gums, nose, and bruises everywhere. Therefore, I was trying to get the cardiac benefits of garlic usage and ended up causing more harm.
In conclusion, how can one properly adminster herbal therapy without causing harm and to learn about herbal therapy? I would love to meet Dr. BlackFoot and to learn through her. Maybe one day, I will be able too and it would make me a better clinician in the medical arena.
Thank you for your assistants.
Have a great evening/day,
Buttons

I am assuming you are speaking of therapuetic touch when you mention TT. It was begun at NYU. It is the cornerstone of CSU program. Herbal therapy is under investigation as to it's impact on other medications. I suggest you do an on line search for programs that integrate the two.

Grannynurse :balloons:

Josh L.Ac. · Aug 28, 2005

Re: Chinese herbs

I took an Chinese herb and pharmaceutical drug interaction class during acupuncture school. There is a wealth of research coming out of China about the pharaceutical effects of herbs. But the biggest problem is that very little is being translated.

But from my class the take home message was that to study drug-herb interactions a person must be able to find research about the pharmaceutical effects of the herb, understand what biological processes are involved, and then do the same for the pharmaceutical drug. Some common herbs will have been studied enough so that interaction effects with certain drugs (or drug classes) are known.

But for the vast majority of herbs (at least Chinese herbs), one must be able to look at possible interactions by knowing all the mechanisms. Unfortunately, there is not a book that can be used as a definitive guide for drug-herb interactions with Chinese herbs. A good start is "Herbal Toxicities and Drug Interactions: A Formula Approach" by Jennes and Flaws, and "Chinese Medical Herbology and Pharmacology" by Chen.

CharlieRN · Aug 31, 2005

I was an herbalist before I was a nurse. I have raised many of the theraputic and poisonous herbs. I also was a wild food gatherer. I know abit on the subject.

Most herbs that have any physiologic effect are poisonous in large quantity or consentrated dosage. Data that can't be found in medical texts may be available if you research poisons, particularly livestock poisonings. The most effective herbs are already being processed into medications by the drug companies. They have done the research and are packaging them in safe doses. Herbs in raw or tea forms are not necessarily either milder or safer because they are "natural". I can walk into my woods and gardens and gather a half dozen different lethal doses in a morning. In my opinion herbs are more dangerous than prescription drugs. Herbs are not in easily or exactly controled doses. They are medicines. If you are not a doctor don't prescribe, or if you insist on doing so expect to be sued someday. If your patient takes enough of an herb to make a difference then they are taking medicinal doses and and can easily overdose. If you are recommending or using subclinical doses then you are wasting effort. If you have a headache, take an aspirin, don't chew on an elm tree.

I have practiced theraputic touch. I have felt the "human energy field" and manipulated it to relieve the patient's discomfort. The experience was 100% subjectively convincing. None the less I have reviewed the research and I do not believe there is any human energy field that can be felt without instrments by a human. It is a matter of the therapist fooling themselves and also the patient. The effect is placebo effect. The process is suggestion and self hypnotic.

There is a place for placebo effects in legitimate medicine and nursing. In the case of conditions that are clearly known to be psychological, use of quasi hypnotic processes to relieve distress is legit. In cases where all curative means have been exausted, use whatever makes the pt feel better. If it is an emergency and you just don't have anything definative you can do for someone in distress, then by all means fool them. Fool them, but don't fool youself.

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion. We nurses really want something of our own we can do without an MD involved. Sorry, but our first duty is to do no harm, and anti scientific "woo-woo" is not the way to meet that responsiblity.

JentheRN05, RN · Aug 31, 2005

I specialize in Reiki (Master/Teacher), color therapy, chakra therapy, crystal therapy, relaxation techniques, among many others. I have been in this for about 4 years now. I have taught a BSN class, and numerous classes while in nursing school. Too bad there's no hospital close by that accepts holistic care as a part of care Hopefully sometime in the future they will see it's worth and we'll be able to use it.

zenman · Sep 1, 2005

I have practiced theraputic touch. I have felt the "human energy field" and manipulated it to relieve the patient's discomfort. The experience was 100% subjectively convincing. None the less I have reviewed the research and I do not believe there is any human energy field that can be felt without instrments by a human. It is a matter of the therapist fooling themselves and also the patient. The effect is placebo effect. The process is suggestion and self hypnotic.

You spoke the truth on herbs but just have a lack of experience re energy medicine. There is lot of research, much by MDs, on the subject and I can tell you, in martial art training, you can "objectively" train to feel another person's energy from across a room. It just takes training. Blind-folded, with ears plugged, you learn very quickly when pain is involved!! :chuckle

Josh L.Ac. · Sep 1, 2005

The most effective herbs are already being processed into medications by the drug companies. They have done the research and are packaging them in safe doses. Herbs in raw or tea forms are not necessarily either milder or safer because they are "natural".

In the context of Chinese herbal medicine:

In Chinese herbal medicine, loose herbs that are decocted into a tea are generally considered the strongest form of a formula. The herbal [water] decoction has the strongest effect and the greatest chance of causing side-effects. Because of this, it is important to monitor the interaction with the patient, and it is also important to modify the formula based on the needs and constitution of the patient.

Prepared medicines, on the other hand, are usually (not always) considered much weaker and safer for long-term use. If you (or better yet, your nationally licensed Chinese herbalist) buys from some of the top name US companies, it is a safe bet the medicine is "clean". But if you go into an herb shop in Chinatown, you have to be very careful about what brand you purchase.

In summary, prepared herbal formulas are usually safer and can be taken long term while loose formulas are stronger, have more potential of side-effects, but can be modified for the patient by an experienced provider.

CharlieRN · Sep 8, 2005

I have martial arts in my background too. It prepared me quite well for TT etc. The process of internal focusing and centering are very helpful for getting started in the self hypnotic process. The very light trance that is induced can allow you to do things with your body that you can't do without it. You can bend joints farther, ignore pain, hit harder, and focus on the non verbal signals an opponent gives of his intent. You can also send non verbal counter threats. This is all natural stuff. No "woo-woo" involved. No need to postulate a human energy field that noone can measure. The absolutly convincing subjective experience needs to be emphasized. It feels totally real. You need not fear you will lose your "power" by admitting to yourself that what you are doing is a self hypnotic subjective process. I assure you it still works. Hypnotism is easy.

If you believe you can prove the exsistence of "Ki", "chee" or "the human energy field" in a repeatable, double blind scientific study, don't waste time on this bulletin board. Contact the folks at randi.org and apply to have your power tested. There is a million USD reward for demonstrating the existence of any psychic power under strick scientific conditions.

MovieNurse · Sep 8, 2005

Hi Nurses, I have been a nurse 20 years and have been studying Holistic Nursing for about 18 years. I have taken numerous courses in Energy Work and have had amazing results. I have done it on myself, my pets and whoever wants to experience Energy Work. Nurses should know more than anyone to never say never. People are healed from terminal illness when Drs. give up hope. Keep an open mind and have faith in the amazing human body God has given us.

Energy example: You have a feeling someone is looking at you, or you just walked into a room that someone just died and it feels unsettled.

Energy work moves the energy to restore balance. We all do it and don't even realize we are doing energy work. Ex.: we bang our shin on the table, we automatically put our hand to the painful area and rub it back and forth. It moves the energy and relieves the pain. Whala energy work.

JentheRN05, RN · Sep 8, 2005

I am a M/T in several types of Reiki. It has become strong enough that at times I don't even need to scan a person to know whats wrong. I have taught several classes and everyone is amazed at what can be done. I disagree with the ones who do not believe, but it is their choice to not believe. I have enough people that have seen proof that I personally don't care about the ones that don't believe.

CharlieRN · Sep 10, 2005

Let me say this again:

If you believe you can prove the exsistence of "Ki", "chee" or "the human energy field" in a repeatable, double blind scientific study, don't waste time on this bulletin board. Contact the folks at randi.org and apply to have your power tested. There is a million USD reward for demonstrating the existence of any psychic power under strick scientific conditions

There is really a million dollar ($ 1,000,000.00 )prize being offered. If you don't want it, win it and donate it to the relief effort. The link is http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

Personally, I would love to manipulate the human energy field and cure patients, I just want scientificly verified proof that there is such a thing. Anactdotal "evidence" (stories)will not do. A scientificly verifiable phenonmenon is objective, repeatable, testable, predictable and falsafiable. That last is most important. It means that an experiment can be designed that will show if the phenomenon in question does not exist. It must be possible to disprove the theory, if the theory is incorrect.

An example of a non falsafiable theory is "prayer works". If you pray and what you pray for happens then you have a positive result. It seems that prayer works. But if you don't get what you pray for: God, who knows better than you decided that it would not be good for you to have that prayer answered. Or alternatively, you did not pray hard enough. No possible result to the experiment will lead to the conclusion that prayer does not work. It is a non falsafiable theory. This does not mean it is not true it just means it can't be proven to be true. Such theories belong to the fields of Belief, not Knowledge. They may be Religion, Myth, Faith, Superstition but it is not Science.

When Jen talks about being sure of her subjective results and unconcerned about "unbelievers" that makes it likely that she is talking about an item which one has to "believe in". Noone needs to "believe in" gravity for it to work for them. It just does. That is because it is real.