Help to avoid PHMP

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Has anyone gone to an inpatient facility in PA for a 'second opinion' in order to avoid being forced into the PHMP program? Please help if you have any advice. Thank you. 

ADN244 said:

Wow - thank you so so much!! This is really helpful. Much appreciated. 

Welcome

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Do you by chance have links to any of these stories where a nurse has gotten an outside evaluation done? I tried to find it and I can't find any.

Thank you

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ADN244 said:

Do you by chance have links to any of these stories where a nurse has gotten an outside evaluation done? I tried to find it and I can't find any.

Thank you

Links?  No.  Personal experience when I worked and where I worked in the past?  Over 10 times.  Also, it happened to me.  DUI from 3 years earlier, went to rehab, never drank again, BON contacts me and the process started.  That was in 2004.  That's also how I got into the legal field or the past that started it.  Nurses who win don't come to forums like this very much, but there are some if you scroll back and search through here I'm sure.  When they win, they go back to living their lives.  Nurses who don't win come to Boards like this.  Kind of like the old customer service option stuff.  People are more likely to comment if they have a bad experience, but don't comment much if the experience is good.  

I will not go into great detail, but from working in the past, I saw 10 or 11 cases either be completely dropped or the nurse got 1 year in monitoring compared to over 100 cases in my 20 years of working where the nurse got nailed. Every single case....Literally, EVERY ONE that got off the hook got a second eval and an attorney and those are the one's that won.  For the nurses that lost........nearly all of them took the word of other nurses and trusted their case managers and convinced themselves the BON approved eval would certainly be "Fair."  Now, there were some nurses who got that second eval and they still lost.  Why?  Because the second eval from a non board approved facility ALSO said YES, you actually DO have a substance use disorder and you need help.  In those cases, there is nothing the nurse can do, but if you truly do NOT have a substance use or substance abuse disorder, then you are overwhelmingly likely to NOT get an SUD diagnosis if you go to a facility that is truly Objective.  

It's your choice.  You do what you want to do.  It's your life.  You have been told and likely (like most nurses) believe that a second eval will not mean anything or have any weight.  You have received opinions on one side.  I'm simply giving you the Other side, of which I lived and worked in for years.  At the end of the day, we all have free will and only you can make the choice to get another eval or not.  My goal is to ensure you have heard Both Sides.  Which one you choose is all you.

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So I'm already in the system to go to this inpatient evaluation next week from a facility required by the board.....do you recommend that I don't go there anymore and instead get this second evaluation done?  Or would it be OK to still go to this facility, and if they STILL say I have a mild disorder, then to get another (technically a third) outside opinion? The issue here is I already am signed up to go to this facility...

Not sure if it will look a lot worse if I go here...and they say I have a mild disorder...and then I get a third outside who says I don't...but the first 2 count against me, you know? 

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ADN244 said:

So I'm already in the system to go to this inpatient evaluation next week from a facility required by the board.....do you recommend that I don't go there anymore and instead get this second evaluation done?  Or would it be OK to still go to this facility, and if they STILL say I have a mild disorder, then to get another (technically a third) outside opinion? The issue here is I already am signed up to go to this facility...

Not sure if it will look a lot worse if I go here...and they say I have a mild disorder...and then I get a third outside who says I don't...but the first 2 count against me, you know? 

Understand that my opinions are based on trusting you.....meaning......you truly don't have a drinking problem. I'm taking you at your word. 

I would 100 percent go to the scheduled eval that the BON has approved. No attorney can get you out of not going to the BONs eval place. So for sure, you need to go to that facility and get it done because it's pretty much required.

I'm simply saying (in my opinion if I were you) go get your own eval done PURPOSELY at a Non BON (tied at the hip) facility. You can do that before the BON approved facility eval which is better, but if not enough time, do it after. You don't have to have a 2 or 3 day inpatient eval at the non approved BON facility that you choose. You can do that in one day as an outpatient.

The advantage of having that done Before you go to the BON approved schedule eval that you have upcoming? You have the results of your own eval that you did on the side showing you do not have an SUD and you deliver those results to the BON approved facility the very second you walk in the door. Sure, that facility may say, "we do our own evals and go by our own results," but they also have an eval in their hands that says you don't have a problem before your evaluation even begins with them. Do you think they are going to think twice about cheating or exaggerating a diagnosis that you don't have? The answer is yes, yes they will be much more cautious if you just got an eval saying you don't have a problem. This is the advantage of having that eval done Prior to going to your scheduled eval with the BON facility. Also, FYI, if the BON approved eval place says we "we will not look at or acknowledge previous evals," remind them that by law, they have to. Past evals are a pertinent part of your past medical history that relates to having or not having SUD, and it's technically illegal to not even acknowledge obvious past medical history. Them not even looking at your past SUD eval is equal to a Doctor getting a new Diabetic patient and saying, "I'm not interested in looking at your recent A1C and Blood Sugar levels even though you have them in your hand." See my point? It's illegal. 

I would absolutely be sure I went to the scheduled BON eval you have upcoming. You could get into trouble by not going.

One final thing. Your goal should be to not have more than 1 year of monitoring. 2 is too much and 3 or 4 or 5 is out of the question. You got a DUI and that DUI in and of itself pretty much authorizes the BON (even if it reaches an admin law judge) the right to give you 1 year in monitoring. Even if BOTH evals say no issues or no problem or no monitoring recommended, the odds are overwhelming that you still get 1 year. The BON and any eval place can justify that simply based on your one decision to drink and drive (even if you are not an alcoholic) a DUI in and of itself meets enough diagnostic criteria bases on the testing and matrix they use to justify one year.

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As a side note, I did my evaluation on zoom and it was less than one hour. They send people to these facilities for a few days for what,  money?

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SheelaDavis said:

Understand that my opinions are based on trusting you.....meaning......you truly don't have a drinking problem. I'm taking you at your word. 

I would 100 percent go to the scheduled eval that the BON has approved. No attorney can get you out of not going to the BONs eval place. So for sure, you need to go to that facility and get it done because it's pretty much required.

I'm simply saying (in my opinion if I were you) go get your own eval done PURPOSELY at a Non BON (tied at the hip) facility. You can do that before the BON approved facility eval which is better, but if not enough time, do it after. You don't have to have a 2 or 3 day inpatient eval at the non approved BON facility that you choose. You can do that in one day as an outpatient.

The advantage of having that done Before you go to the BON approved schedule eval that you have upcoming? You have the results of your own eval that you did on the side showing you do not have an SUD and you deliver those results to the BON approved facility the very second you walk in the door. Sure, that facility may say, "we do our own evals and go by our own results," but they also have an eval in their hands that says you don't have a problem before your evaluation even begins with them. Do you think they are going to think twice about cheating or exaggerating a diagnosis that you don't have? The answer is yes, yes they will be much more cautious if you just got an eval saying you don't have a problem. This is the advantage of having that eval done Prior to going to your scheduled eval with the BON facility. Also, FYI, if the BON approved eval place says we "we will not look at or acknowledge previous evals," remind them that by law, they have to. Past evals are a pertinent part of your past medical history that relates to having or not having SUD, and it's technically illegal to not even acknowledge obvious past medical history. Them not even looking at your past SUD eval is equal to a Doctor getting a new Diabetic patient and saying, "I'm not interested in looking at your recent A1C and Blood Sugar levels even though you have them in your hand." See my point? It's illegal. 

I would absolutely be sure I went to the scheduled BON eval you have upcoming. You could get into trouble by not going.

One final thing. Your goal should be to not have more than 1 year of monitoring. 2 is too much and 3 or 4 or 5 is out of the question. You got a DUI and that DUI in and of itself pretty much authorizes the BON (even if it reaches an admin law judge) the right to give you 1 year in monitoring. Even if BOTH evals say no issues or no problem or no monitoring recommended, the odds are overwhelming that you still get 1 year. The BON and any eval place can justify that simply based on your one decision to drink and drive (even if you are not an alcoholic) a DUI in and of itself meets enough diagnostic criteria bases on the testing and matrix they use to justify one year.

Thanks so much for this explanation! I know that PA's monitoring program is a minimum of 3 years. But, I will get my own SUD eval done and I'm hoping that will help too. Thank you very much. 

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ADN244 said:

Thanks so much for this explanation! I know that PA's monitoring program is a minimum of 3 years. But, I will get my own SUD eval done and I'm hoping that will help too. Thank you very much. 

You will have lot of evidence OVER TIME....which is key.  You got the DUI 6 years ago you stated.  You also stated you had a couple of SUD evals about 2 years ago if I read correctly that stated no issues.  Now, if you get your own outside eval (just in case the BON approved place tries to screw you over and they regularly do that) you will have 3 evals OVER A PERIOD OF TIME from about 2 years ago until present that show no issue.  See how powerful that is?  You can not just show that you have no problem RIGHT NOW, but who is to say you didn't have a problem from the time you had the DUI until 3 months ago, and now you are temporarily sober?  The BON thinks this way.  Your advantage is....you can show going back to about 2 years (no problem) and now 2 years later, still no problem.  That's powerful.  

In your case, the DUI from 6 years ago actually can work in your favor.  Why?  First, as mentioned above the negative evals.  Second, you could obtain letters from past work supervisors or colleagues from where you worked showing you never had a problem with alcohol and never showed any hints of signs of substance misuse while you were working the last 6 years.  Again......that's powerful.  This doesn't help the BON's case when you can now show no issues from previous employers since the DUI and 3 negative evals over the last 2 years.  That works in your favor if you use it that way.  I would consider tracking down colleagues (supervisor is better) but if you can't get a supervisor, a work colleague to write a letter and make sure they have the letter notarized to make it official.  The BON will NOT accept a letter from an "outsider" that isn't notarized, especially as it relates to your character.  

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Specializes in ICU.

If the facility you have your eval scheduled at is in Wernersville, be prepared for them to give you a SUD diagnosis. I would most definitely get a second opinion and try to fight this. 

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Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.

Visit the American Association of Nurse Attorneys   to search their referral service for PA Nurse Attorneys with nurse licensure/discipline defense practices.

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Thank you everyone for the incredibly helpful advice!! I have reached out to a nurse attorney (I wish I did this sooner since I'm not sure if it will be too late now). But I'm glad I know this information now at least. 

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ADN244 said:

Thank you everyone for the incredibly helpful advice!! I have reached out to a nurse attorney (I wish I did this sooner since I'm not sure if it will be too late now). But I'm glad I know this information now at least. 

As long as you have not yet signed a consent order with the BON, you aren't too late.

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