Health Care is a right

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I would do a poll on this, but I do not know how to - or maybe you need to be a premium member.

At any rate, I would like to hear some discussion on whether you feel health care is a right or not.

I personally do.

OR or should employers be mandated to provided at least some level of ins that employees pay into Altough small group plans are far from inexpensive,,they are still cheaper than individual plans?

Asking employers to pay insurance is like asking corporations to pay taxes.

The employer doesn't pay your insurance. It's all one lump sum cost. Your benefits + your salary = your cost to your employer. There's no law that's going to suddenly make you more valuable to your employer. So if they have to pay more towards your benefits(insurance where they weren't before) then they're just going to pay you less to even it out. So ultimately, this line of thinking is just forcing you to buy insurance.

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I was being a smart-ass, apologies.

I got the point. And agree that college isn't for everyone.

But, that doesn't solve the underlying problems that most people with just a high school diploma face when they enter the real world.

What about the folks who serve our dinners, work at our department stores, work at our gas stations, movie stores, grocery stores and all the employment opportunities that make up the service sector?

I agree that not everyone is smart enough to go to school and get an education that's going to make them a decent living. But, they have needs and it's morally irresponsible to ignore that. The free market can't solve everything. In fact it's been on a down-ward slope for awhile now.

What happens to the service sector, when they need health care...don't have ins, put off going to md,,,end up in the ER, make too much for reduced fee (which is not a whole lot of mney) They get a whopping bill, hsp doesn't get paid, file gets turned over to collection agency (lawyer). Pts credit rating gets screwed up...and if anybody makes any money out of the deal, it's the lawyer, after they harass the life out of the pt....just gotta be a better plan

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Specializes in LTC.
Drive is finding a way that works, regardless of the differences in your environment. It's the law of nature that everyone and everything has to adapt to their surroundings. Of course this works for me, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. But if it didn't, you can be damn sure that i'd be doing something else that did work.

I'm suggesting that noone should have children, unless they can adequately support them. Is that so unreasonable?

I share your work ethic. In fact, I think a lot of people do. I think the vast majority of poor people are hard workers. I think if you work hard in America, you shouldn't have to worry about the basics (e.g. food, shelter, health care). Sadly this isn't the case. The reality is that we can do everything right and still fall through the cracks because the our economic system can be cruel and unforgiving. That's why the some industries (like health insurance) should be taken out of the market and be given to the federal government via a single-payer mechanism. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a more equitable cheaper way to deliver people health care needs.

Your thoughts regarding children really aren't that unreasonable. But, consider that as much as 50% of all pregnancies are accidents. What do to with the poor that have these accidents? Should they be forced to abort?

Under a single-payer plan funded by tax dollars, the very poor among us could get abortions (if they so choose) on the tax-payers dime, contraceptives could be made available too. Just imagine the cost-saving.

They absolutely can rise above it. Theres always room to move up in any field. You can start out flipping burgers at mcdonalds, and if thats as far as your interest in your own life takes you. Great, enjoy your one bedroom apartment, your bus pass, and your rice and noodles. But even without formal education, theres no reason you cant learn the ropes, move up to shift manager, and eventually store manager in a few years. Is it a glamorous job? Not really. But it pays enough to start a family. If you really want to put in the effort, you can make it a point to move on to casual dining and then more upscale restaurants. All....with no additional college. And...if for whatever reason you can't make it in that field, find somewhere more suitable. There are plenty of other fields. Construction, transportation, etc. A lot of which you can start out making enough to support a family. It may be a difficult path finding a niche, but it seems like everyone expects things to be easy.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this last point. With all due respect, I don't think you are factoring in the variables that life throws at us. Why do you think it is that most people who are born in a socio-economic class stay there? In other words, why does generational poverty exist?

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Your thoughts regarding children really aren't that unreasonable. But, consider that as much as 50% of all pregnancies are accidents. What do to with the poor that have these accidents? Should they be forced to abort?

Accidental pregnancies are like smokers accidentally getting cancer. It's not "oops, how'd that happen?". It's failure to act responsibly ahead of time.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this last point. With all due respect, I don't think you are factoring in the variables that life throws at us. Why do you think it is that most people who are born in a socio-economic class stay there? In other words, why does generational poverty exist?

In a word, I'd say either lack of drive, and or unwillingness to work/sacrifice to advance. Why is it that the immigrants that founded this country came here with no money and no possessions and managed to start buisnesses and make their fortunes? They were driven. People that grow up in poverty in america accept that that's the way it's going to be. They don't puruse opportunities, and often times ignore them. They were brought up accustomed to letting the government provide the bare minimum for them, rather then go out and carve their own path to success.

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Specializes in ER.

You have to be kidding me. Have you read a page of US history? The entire reason that we have any standards of living at all is because there were labor struggles that nearly consumed the country - certainly not because the clever people rose to the top. If it were not for these struggles, including the current one for health care, we would still be living under feudal lords, considering the terms of child labor, or debating slavery. Please, please do not attempt to rewrite history on the newest "market reform" which is to retire insurance companies to the dustbin.

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Specializes in LTC.
Accidental pregnancies are like smokers accidentally getting cancer. It's not "oops, how'd that happen?". It's failure to act responsibly ahead of time.

Doesn't change the fact that people are going to have sex, and sometimes sex leads to pregnancy. You can't legislate personal responsibility. And again, unless we want to start mandating abortions it's either ante up for the children or let them suffer.

In a word, I'd say either lack of drive, and or unwillingness to work/sacrifice to advance. Why is it that the immigrants that founded this country came here with no money and no possessions and managed to start buisnesses and make their fortunes? They were driven. People that grow up in poverty in america accept that that's the way it's going to be. They don't puruse opportunities, and often times ignore them. They were brought up accustomed to letting the government provide the bare minimum for them, rather then go out and carve their own path to success.

The immigrants that you no of, You forgot slaves and indentured servants, they are the people who built this country.

Most people (including poor people) think that they too can someday be rich if they try enough or work hard enough. Hard work and "drive" are certainly not always enough to raise a person from poverty. But people keep believing it, that's probably why some of them vote against their best interest. The propaganda machine just keeps on pumping out garbage to maintain the status quo.

Thanks for your opinion.

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It's interesting how we assume that just because something is working for us means that it can work for everyone. The fact is the rules aren't streamlined, there are differences depending on where you are and who you are, among other things.

You have admitted that not everyone can or wants to go to college, and that some would be better suited learning a trade (which I might add does require further education). But, it's true that not everyone is going to college or learn a trade, some people will stay in the service sector for the rest of their lives.

Are you suggesting that people who fall in the lower (service sector) socio-economic class shouldn't have children? What "job" should they attain that will pay them more with no skills?

You make the faulty assumptions that poor people who work in service sector jobs:

1) Can rise above if the work hard enough. (you admitted yourself that not everyone is cut out for college)

2) Don't "sacrifice" and are not "inconvenienced".

So you're trying hard to better yourself. Good for you. You are doing what you are capable of doing, and so is just about everyone, congratulations.

Do you not realize that these people are the backbone of our entire economic system? What would we do without them? Who would serve us our food, rent us our videos, sell us junk at Wal-Mart, bag our groceries, operate the cash register at the gas station, on and on?

I bag my own groceries, I ring them up too, I haven't been inside a gas station in years. ATM card.

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They don't actually produce anything. They're the middlemen. They're "service" is sketchy and unreliable and incredibly wasteful. Medicare runs at about 3% overheard. Can any private insurance company boast at such an accomplishment?

Of course it's wasteful. We spend more money on health care than any other country on the planet, and contrary to popular belief, we don't have the best health outcomes. I am free to advocate for a better solution, and I do.

Why do you assume you know me? It's not a "one size fits all" world.

ONE SIZE FITS ALL UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE ONE SIZE FITS ALL UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. sorry I repeat myself.

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Specializes in LTC.
ONE SIZE FITS ALL UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE ONE SIZE FITS ALL UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. sorry I repeat myself.

That's different, obviously. When people talk about choice in their health care plans all they really mean is being covered for their medical needs.

There's no need to shout, we're all adults here. ;)

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That's different, obviously. When people talk about choice in their health care plans all they really mean is being covered for their medical needs.

There's no need to shout, were all adults here. ;)

No, thats not all they really mean. That's not what they mean at all. Coverage and choice are two seperate issues. Choice deals with things like the freedom to choose your physician and not being forced to go with one that happens to be in a specific program, and the ability to choose what type of coverage suits you best for the price.

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Specializes in LTC.
No, thats not all they really mean. That's not what they mean at all. Coverage and choice are two seperate issues. Choice deals with things like the freedom to choose your physician and not being forced to go with one that happens to be in a specific program, and the ability to choose what type of coverage suits you best for the price.

All taken into consideration in countries with universal health care.

Choice is an illusion for so many here in the States. As it currently exists, our choices of doctor are determined by private health insurance companies.

Coverage desires are pretty universal, when people get sick they want coverage.

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Most people (including poor people) think that they too can someday be rich if they try enough or work hard enough. Hard work and "drive" are certainly not always enough to raise a person from poverty. But people keep believing it, that's probably why some of them vote against their best interest. The propaganda machine just keeps on pumping out garbage to maintain the status quo.

Thanks for your opinion.

The impoverished are truly fortunate to have you, as you obviously know whats best for them more then you do. They're ignorant and brainwashed, but you've seen the light. And as for rising up....I've seen it, I've done it. Sometimes, the only way to get ahead is to work two, three jobs. 80+ hours a week. Getting ahead sure isn't easy. But I subscribe to the old school train of thought where everything in life doesn't need to be easy.

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