Has nursing in Australia been sold out ?

joannep · Aug 12, 2009

I've also noticed that this has happened in nursing.

My grandmother and mother were nurses and they had more variety in where they could go. My grandmother was in charge of Dietetics at a major hospital in the 1950's, a nurse wouldn't even get an interview for a job like that now. Nurses could train to become perfusionists, not now, and lets not forget Elizabeth Kenny and her revolutionary treatment of Polio, before physiotherapy was even a word ... and don't even mention Social Workers to me, how did they get the monopoly on being case managers? ... the list goes on.

I think that's why so many nurses go into community nursing as soon as they can, at least you are autonomous.

Scrubby · Aug 12, 2009

I guess I haven't found this the case with my specialty because I work in theatre and we don't have technicians....yet and my fellow nurses will fight tooth and nail to keep them out or if not under OUR supervision.

Where I work nurses basically run the place. We organise the lists, we do everything to make sure that the lists runs smoothly and coordinate the trauma theatres. While we work with surgeons we still work autonomously. But speaking with veteran nurses, I've heard very similar arguments about PT, OT, Dieticians and other allied health in the ward environment.

I plan on undertaking a Masters Degree next year and I'm not doing it in nursing, it will probably be in Public Health because I would have far more options available than a Masters in nursing science.

emmalou* · Aug 12, 2009

undergraduate nurses are considered a bit childish and not quite the real deal. A bit of a micky mouse degree if you will. virtually anyone can get into a nursing degree ( charles sturt university for example) and believe me - the RN's ive had to work with during the past years have been dodge dodge dodgy ! and embarrassing to say the least.

Are you repeating what you've heard people say or what you think? Is this coming from nurses or other professionals?

I don't agree with this - it strikes me as yet more endless criticism of university educated nurses -v- hospital trained nurses, something I've been hearing (and tiring of) for around 15 years or so, since I completed my nursing degree. One of the things I disliked the most about being a graduate nurse back in the 90s, and it certainly hasn't changed from what I've observed/heard, is that hospital and health systems expect graduate nurses to be fully experienced and skilled right from the minute they walk onto a ward. This isn't a realistic expectation in any occupation, much less nursing. Experienced nurses, whether they come from a hospital trained background or a university education, are often very dismissive and impatient with new nurses. I often think how self defeating this is, considering that new nurses are valuable to nursing and the health system, and with some patience, tolerance and education from seasoned nurses, will go on to become experienced nurses who hopefully stay in the system. Sadly, a lot of nurses leave, probably in a large part because the nursing culture is so negative.

I see nursing as a part of a whole team - we work with allied health professionals, and doctors. Feeling like you're being told what to do, or are answering to other people is your perception, it's not necessarily the case. I've always felt equal to allied health staff, and the more experienced I became, I felt comfortable with medical officers as well.

I was an RN for 14 years, tired of the shift work and the workplace politics, then completed my masters in rehabilitation counselling and changed my career. I can tell you from the experience of changing my career to a seemingly 'easier' occupation in terms of working hours and not being in the front line anymore that it is just as stressful and difficult at times, as nursing. I can also tell you, from rehabilitating workers back to the workplace who are from many other disciplines, that there are just as many issues in other career paths as nursing.

Nursing is difficult, true, likely more difficult than some occupations. But the real problem is within nursing, the culture, and how nurses perceive themselves and their peers - often negatively. I think a lot of nurses walk around with a massive chip on their shoulder and expect people to pat them on the back for doing a good job. That doesn't happen in any occupation.

It is up to you, and your peers, to increase the positive perception of nursing. How can nursing leaders do anything if you yourself have such a negative view of nursing?

allnurses Guide · Aug 12, 2009

I haven't found the same in my time in critical care. I'm out of it now since I'm working overseas, but that's only the past 2 years. I do work in ICU so maybe a little insulated. I have always felt that the allied health professionals are part of a team which I coordinate - I certainly never felt that I was doing their bidding, rather that I called them in as required for the benefit of my patients. After working in the US, I think nursing in Australia has actually retained a lot of control over tasks that's gone to techs etc over there.

I certainly didn't find that "anyone can get into nursing", or that it's a "mickey mouse degree". I transferred to my BN from a science degree, and found it every bit as challenging, albeit in different ways. Agree the entry criteria were nothing huge, but those who weren't suited dropped pretty quickly. I do agree that the calibre of nurses here is overall poorer - most are happy to have their bachelors and that's where it ends. There is far more interest and enthusiasm for graduate level nursing study in the States - most people have some plan of at least pursuing a masters degree.

You sound bitter and burned out - maybe time for a change.

Trishalishus, PhD, CNS · Aug 13, 2009

Our nursing leaders have been really **** weak and if i had my time over again i would have devoted my energies into nurisng leadership to change some of the trends that have occurred during the last 10 years. Im apalled at my career choice now, however i have had some fantastic times in the profession but sadly it is diminishing greatly. ... I would like to challenge the nursing leaders of the last 10 years and tell them they have lost the package and let us new generation down its too much hard work to change what they should have been looking after. They have failed to protect the integrity of profession and now we truely are handmaidens both to the allied health sciences and to the medical profession. I challenge the 'nursing academics' and the 'nursing leaders' to a debate.

How about instead of challenging them to a debate here, you join the union, join the RCNA, go back to uni and do a teaching cert and maybe do a better job of teaching than the people you're criticising (because you have more recent experience? My teachers all still do regular clinical shifts to keep their hands in), start some practice development projects with your team in your work place, go back to uni and do a research masters on your topic and then get it published; go on the conference circuit. Maybe you could switch your specialty - go into learning and development? Lots of options for you - lots of things you can do to promote change and/or debate if you're that unhappy, eh?

Speaking as a student with a number of degrees in related and unrelated areas, including a Masters, and doing placements in aged care, rehab and mental health, I have so far found terrific cooperation from allied health, and experienced nurses have been great tutors - I don't think anyone thinks I'm a dodgy dangerous idjit - and I don't think I am either. I take my studies very seriously as do 95% of my fellow students - and I am streamlining my subjects, placements and readings to end up where I want to be. Finally, I haven't gained the us/them impression in any of my placements (and instead, the respected nurses' opinions were valued by all).

Good luck

ps a holiday first might help - you do sound a bit tired

pps I just had another thought - if you've recently had a bad experience - or are currently copping grief from someone here is a website where you might get some tips on how to deal with him/her/them.

Best wishes

chani · Aug 14, 2009

I would have to agree with both sides of the debate here. I am concerned over the dilution of nursing degrees away from an applied science degree and do feel that there is a lack of certain somethings. But who is to blame? Well all of us. Can we all say we have welcomed undergrads and postgrads with open arms? I'm not sure as a community we have. Do we steer a negative discussion about student nurses into a constructive discussion to enhance the students experience No we dont.

For me I think the real crux of the matter is that in 1985 when Health departments dumped the responsiblity for RN education on the tertiary sector they then took on no responsibility for undergraduate or postgraduate continuing education. I would love to develop a partnership model of education between a university and a hospital where the undergrads were employed as student nurses and spent half the year at work undertaking their clinical experience with the other half of the year at university learning the theory. Increase the time to four years with the hospitals taking responsibility for the development of what is without doubt their most valuable worker!

pedicurn, LPN, RN · Aug 14, 2009

I agree :

- low entry standards

- watered down academic content

- too much power sharing (or even subservient relationships) with OT/ PT/SW. Most of these have their roots in nursing.

- failure of nursing to adopt professional level qualifications and aptitude expectation for nurse leaders

- low level respect and lack of opportunity for nurses who happen to have more rigorous non-nursing first degrees/masters

I feel it too .... I think nursing in Australasia is now in the highly skilled arena.... not a profession