student nurse dreading outcome of misjudgement

sbic56, BSN, RN · Oct 9, 2005

You know - I don't see it as an issue of being judgmental, but rather having strong opinions that people who are convicted of felonies may not be suitable for nursing. I am not suggesting he is a bad person, many, many people convicted of crimes are not "bad" people, but I am ok with standards that prevent convicted felons from being licensed to care for vulnerable people in life and death situations. That doesn't mean some good folks won't lose out on a nursing career because of mistakes they made, or some dishonest nurses still won't get licensed because they don't get caught. But it just seems like a reasonable standard, even if not a perfect one.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't like blanket judgements that determine a person's fate, especially where one indiscretion is involved. I think it is terribly naive and counterproductive to have such a standard. Naive, because it is arguably not making patients safer; the most devious offenders may never get caught. Counterproductive because it may be eliminating a potentially great nurse from ever being. Would this same strict standard hold true for those persuing other professions where they may come in close enough contact to potentially do harm to someone? Accountants? Waiters? Priests? Stewardesses? Social workers?

Catys_With_Me · Oct 9, 2005

I don't like blanket judgements that determine a person's fate...

It's not about judging a person's character or worth, but about the consequences a person experiences due to their behavior. As I am attempting to teach my teenager: behavior has consequences and many times those consequences are fixed and long lasting. If you don't want to suffer those consequences you may want to think once, twice, thrice before indulging in the behavior. That's life folks.

I had my license suspended for a month 10 years ago d/t too many speeding tickets in a short time. As a result of my past behavior I would have a VERY difficult time today obtaining a position that requires I drive for my employer. Does this mean I'm a bad person? Not at all. Does it mean I'm a potential liability (at least on paper) and that another person might be a better 'risk' for my employer when attempting to fill such a position? Absolutely. I will never be a police officer for example because of this behavior, even though it's 10 years past. If I'm mature I accept that, I own it as being a direct result of life choices I have made, and I look for another career.

No one is judging this person's character. Of course everyone makes mistakes. And yes, sometimes misdemeanors and felonies are mistakes that are really a one time thing from which people learn and move on. However... in the adult world certain behaviors have serious consequences. And what others are attempting to get across is that that's just not a bad thing.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Oct 9, 2005

Catys

I am not talking about this persons character. I am talking about people who judge others based on one indiscretion. Not right, IMO. The punishment should fit the crime. There is no indication this person would not make a great nurse based on one arrest. I'd need to know much more to have an opinion on whether he would be a good person to be around vulnerable people. It's not so black and white to me. Your dangerous driving habits didn't affect your entire life and you learned from your mistake. I don't like that his one bad move could mean he can never be a nurse. That's just totally wrong.

Catys_With_Me · Oct 9, 2005

There is no indication this person would not make a great nurse based on one arrest. I'd need to know much more to have an opinion on whether he would be a good person to be around vulnerable people.

But from an ethical and professional standpoint it can be argued that an arrest may be an indication that they would not be... If you want to sit down with someone and form an opinion after extensively exploring their character and soul that is a wonderful, worthwhile thing to do personally. The reality is that those who license and employ nurses usually do not have the time, inclination, and/or resources to put into such an endeavor and must go off something considered to be more concrete and less subjective... the acts a person has or has not committed. As a result, these become a primary indicator of a person's character instead. The best predictor of future behavior is often past behavior. Always? No. Often enough? Yes. Unfortunately that's the situation you put yourself into when you do illegal and unethical things. Fair to everyone? Probably not. Fair for most? Probably yes.

truern · Oct 9, 2005

nursing213

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student nurse mistake part2

I just wanted to thank every one for their input. It has been very helpful. Meanwhile, my friend told me that the item he stole was an electric razor that he was going to give his father and that he faces the judge on the 20th, so I will keep you all posted. Please fell free to reply back with any more advice or comments.

cherokeesummer · Oct 9, 2005

Just out of curiousity can we find out the details - i.e. what did he/she steal? What did they say as their reason? I'm just curious - I mean if it was medicine for a sick child or food for a starved family member or was it a stereo, or was it a article of clothing that they wanted or whatever? I'm just curious as to the what/why aspect too...

Thanks all! Very interesting debate here and I figured I'd like to know more details.

speedykicks · Oct 9, 2005

"I am talking about people who judge others based on one indiscretion. Not right, IMO. The punishment should fit the crime. "

I am not judging this young man based on one indiscretion. I am arguing for the validity of licensing requirements that exclude convicted felons - assuming that the court has already made the judgment in accordance with rights citizens have when being tried.

Now I am curious - how many of you live in states where any felony conviction excludes you from licensure as an RN? Is this common?

As for this particular fellow - if it really is a first time offense, and there are other character witnesses and evidence that can support the fact that this crime is not consistent with his character or behavior, then he stands an excellent chance of having the charge reduced or being eligible for diversion if it is moved down to misdemeanor level, right? So, in essence, our judicial system is set up to consider these facts - the licensing boards do not have to. And finally, just because I argue in favor of the merits of standards that exclude convicted felons from licensure does not mean I am do not empathize with the young man. It sucks he may lose the chance to be an RN because of his actions and it is too bad he didn't more fully consider the potential consequences before choosing to steal.

Hodge · Oct 9, 2005

Ouch an electric razor....This is very serious indeed. If might NOT have been so bad if he had:

1. lied about weapons of mass destruction to start a war for personal gain, kill 2000 US soldiers and countless Iraqi civilians, and then cut veterans bennefits for our soldiers who are coming home.....

2. committed treason by outing an under cover CIA agent because the intelligence they provided did not meet your preconceived notions (even though those notions were clearly wrong)

3. subverted campaign finance laws to funnel corporate contributions to steal an election

4. made an insider trade on a blind trust account

5. called for the assasination of a foriegn leader who was democratically elected

I mean he stole an electric razor. This is clearly far more serious.....

Stand up, Keep fighting - Senator Paul Wellstone

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Oct 9, 2005

Time to change this thread.

Oh? Says who?

If you want to start a new thread, you certainly have the ability to do so.

But why change a thread that is addressing a serious issue related to nursing?

Let's see if we can stay on topic.

The OP posted that a young man of 22 stole an item worth more than $100 and is now awaiting his fate. Concern was expressed about whether the young man would be able to obtain a license to practice nursing.

Now, those of us who are on topic, where were we? Oh yeah.....

lisamc1RN, LPN · Oct 9, 2005

How did this get turned into a political post? :confused: By your post, it would seem that anything lesser than the offenses listed is just plain silly and trivial to be discussing denying licensure for. I'm not going to say that the guy deserves to be denied the opportunity to become a nurse, but stealing is not a very good quality in a nurse, no matter what the theft. I hope that if he is extended the grace by the court system and the BON to pursue his RN, he will remember this as a lesson learned and an act never to be repeated again.

Ouch an electric razor....This is very serious indeed. If might NOT have been so bad if he had:
1. lied about weapons of mass destruction to start a war for personal gain, kill 2000 US soldiers and countless Iraqi civilians, and then cut veterans bennefits for our soldiers who are coming home.....
2. committed treason by outing an under cover CIA agent because the intelligence they provided did not meet your preconceived notions (even though those notions were clearly wrong)
3. subverted campaign finance laws to funnel corporate contributions to steal an election
4. made an insider trade on a blind trust account
5. called for the assasination of a foriegn leader who was democratically elected
I mean he stole an electric razor. This is clearly far more serious.....
Stand up, Keep fighting - Senator Paul Wellstone

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Oct 9, 2005

nursing213
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: united states
Posts: 2
student nurse mistake part2
I just wanted to thank every one for their input. It has been very helpful. Meanwhile, my friend told me that the item he stole was an electric razor that he was going to give his father and that he faces the judge on the 20th, so I will keep you all posted. Please fell free to reply back with any more advice or comments.

And his father was at death's door unless he got a close shave?

Sorry, this has me more and more convinced I wouldn't want this kid taking care of me, anyone in my family, anyone I know, anyone I care about.

And since I care about all living things, well, maybe accounting is more his bag. That kind of creative thinking is generally applauded more there than in the health care professions anyway.

( :stone ya gotta be kiddin'.... a razor for his daddy? :eek: )

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Oct 9, 2005

Ouch an electric razor....This is very serious indeed. If might NOT have been so bad if he had:
1. lied about weapons of mass destruction to start a war for personal gain, kill 2000 US soldiers and countless Iraqi civilians, and then cut veterans bennefits for our soldiers who are coming home.....
2. committed treason by outing an under cover CIA agent because the intelligence they provided did not meet your preconceived notions (even though those notions were clearly wrong)
3. subverted campaign finance laws to funnel corporate contributions to steal an election
4. made an insider trade on a blind trust account
5. called for the assasination of a foriegn leader who was democratically elected
I mean he stole an electric razor. This is clearly far more serious.....
Stand up, Keep fighting - Senator Paul Wellstone

Hitler was very kind to his dogs, but that doesn't have a lot to do with his character either.

Is this on topic? Maybe I'm just not bright enough to pick up on the subtle points..... (You do know there is a "current events" forum for political commentary, right?)