Are Nursing schools hurting Nursing?

Nursing Students General Students

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First, please consider the attributes of your personal prototype of The Perfect Nurse. What adjectives would you use? Sensitive, caring, compassionate, patient, intelligent?

Now consider the gauntlet students have to run merely to get accepted into Nursing school.

Are the sensitive, caring, compassionate and patient being weeded out in order to make way for and to reward the competitve? And what is that doing to Nursing?

Hey, I'm just a freshman plodding through my pre-reqs, and my psych class this evening included a mention of "Achievement Motivation." Just trying to put 2 and 2 together, and I sometimes phrase things bluntly to elicit responses (I wonder in which chapter that sort of behaviour is covered?:p)

I think they screen for grades and not compassion, because how do you screen for compassion?

I agree, you can't really screen for compassion because anyone can fake that in a situation of being interviewed. There's no true way to tell if someone is compassionate. There are people who don't have to get 4.0 for their programs but they simply do because they are in general just perfectionists (not competitive) or they just understand all of their classes really well.

Specializes in ICU.

Once again: I have no credentials in the field. I'm a freshman who noted something in psych class, and thought it smelled funny. I stand by my initial observation. Competitiveness and compassion may exist in the same person, but I suspect those two traits are more antagonistic than similar. And my hunch is that by focusing on GPA alone - as opposed to coming up with some plan to evaluate the other qualities of the candidate - is weeding out potentially valuable people and giving us a colder less human kind of health care provider.

And lest there be any sneers: I'm carrying 16-hours this semester, currently running at 4.0 (by the grace of God alone!), and transferring this fall to a "whole person" school.

So, are you suggesting that you are not a compassionate person (since you recieve high grades) OR are you assuming that you are unique and few others could possibly be academically strong AND compassionate? ;)

Believe it or not, but compassion can be taught to an extent. And people are not straight black and white; so many shades of gray. I think it comes from our "everyone is special" upbringing that makes us think that a competitive, high achiever personality is antagonistic to the compasionate, nurturing individual. We all equal out b/c for every weakness one has, s/he must be strong at the other end of the spectrum, right? Not always, lol!

Many people can be intelligent, competitive and compassionate, just like many people can be unintelligent, noncompetitive and lack any compassion towards another living thing. Most of us fall somewhere in between those two extremes.

Specializes in MS, ED.

OP, I think you're reading far too much into it.

As a third semester student, I think schools admit students according to the criteria mentioned for one and only one reason:

to admit students likely to perform well throughout the program and ultimately pass the NCLEX, preserving the school's stellar pass rate.

Schools use their pass rate to attract more students and make more money. They don't care individually about who should be a nurse, or who will make a better nurse. Enough weeding - both fair and unfair - takes place throughout school that you're usually left with a small pool in comparison anyhow.

JMO.

Best,

Southern

OP, I think you're reading far too much into it.

As a third semester student, I think schools admit students according to the criteria mentioned for one and only one reason:

to admit students likely to perform well throughout the program and ultimately pass the NCLEX, preserving the school's stellar pass rate.

Schools use their pass rate to attract more students and make more money. They don't care individually about who should be a nurse, or who will make a better nurse. Enough weeding - both fair and unfair - takes place throughout school that you're usually left with a small pool in comparison anyhow.

JMO.

Best,

Southern

I'm so sorry that has been your experience OSouthern. Mine has been very different. We were informed during orientation that we were selected because they thought we had everything we needed to be nurses. It was our job to work hard and their job to teach and mold us into nurses. They are very concerned about what individual nurses they help develop. And lest you say that it's admissions that does the weeding, not the Prof's...it was our Prof's who made the call on who got in....not Admissions.

Specializes in ICU.

I think the best way to discribe it is that the selection process focuses on finding students who will most likely succeed in the program. The program focuses on shaping the students into nurses.

The admission process is not necessarily meant to find who will be the best nurses as there is NO way to tell that from the applicant pool. You can have a good idea who will be successful academically, you can perhaps tell who has a better idea of what the nursing profession is about through interviews and experience requirements, but you CAN'T determine who will ultimately make the ideal nurse at this stage in the game.

Specializes in MS, ED.
And lest you say that it's admissions that does the weeding, not the Prof's...it was our Prof's who made the call on who got in....not Admissions.

I'm not surprised to hear that, actually; our school is the same way. The admissions committee is comprised of our professors and CIs. There are no admissions or administrative staff who do not teach or control some aspect of the program directly.

That being said, they set up our admissions process to select those who will likely be successful in graduating the program. Those who lag along the way are weeded out, lest they fail the NCLEX and affect the (very publicized) pass rate. There is no curve, no extra credit, no leniency; you either pass and pass well, or you will be gone.

I'm happy to hear your experience has been more positive; I just look forward to completing these two remaining semesters and moving on. I wish the experience had been more supportive and nurturing, but it wasn't so.

Best,

Southern

I think it works both ways, I don't think those with a competitive nature are necessarily the ones without compassion. However, at a points school myself, it is a dreadfully fair, cold system. I think some people of a competitive nature ENROLL in the program, just because it IS the "exclusive major" on campus, however.

Strangely, it is a relatively new way of selecting people for the program at my school. I knew several people that are nurses--great ones--that NEVER could have gotten in if the program had been based on points when they enrolled.

I worry about the economy...nursing is attracting people that actually have no interest in NURSING.....just $$.

I worry about the economy...nursing is attracting people that actually have no interest in NURSING.....just $$.

B-M, a counter argument to that would be, "No, Nursing needs the best and brightest and most driven. They'll study hard, they'll go 4.0 in school, and then max out their NCLEX's. Who Cares that they're not interested in Nursing. The only important things are their brains and their work ethic."

...and part of me is praying real hard that I never get sick again...

I think it works both ways, I don't think those with a competitive nature are necessarily the ones without compassion. However, at a points school myself, it is a dreadfully fair, cold system. I think some people of a competitive nature ENROLL in the program, just because it IS the "exclusive major" on campus, however.

Strangely, it is a relatively new way of selecting people for the program at my school. I knew several people that are nurses--great ones--that NEVER could have gotten in if the program had been based on points when they enrolled.

But if they got in, that means someone else didn't....how do you know that the folks who didn't get a seat also wouldn't have been a great nurses?

No matter how a school decides, there's always a line and there's always folks on the other side of the line that can be great nurses.....what we need is more seats in nursing school.

I worry about the economy...nursing is attracting people that actually have no interest in NURSING.....just $$.

Do you have any evidence that folks choosing nursing as a career for the financial security is a new phenomena (or that folks who choose nursing as a career for the financial security aren't compassionate nurses?)? I would be really surprised. Nursing attracts a lot of people for a lot of different reasons.

Specializes in ER, ICU, Education.

As an instructor, it is important that you understand the screening process. Nationwide, last stats say around 42% of qualified applicants aren't admitted due to lack of faculty. We have to draw a line somewhere. There is not at this time an overall tool with strong validity and reliability to rate a student overall on "compassion" as well as scholastic aptitude. Also, as mentioned in other posts, the assumption is being made that the two traits are mutually exclusive.

I personally graduated 4.0 from my first bachelor's, my BSN program in nursing, and my master's program. Does this mean that my motives are to succeed at any cost, at the expense of compassion and others ? Hardly. I was motivated by a great desire to help patients and to one day teach, which I am now doing. The more knowledge I could gain, the more I felt I could help and one day teach. This does not mean that only A students can help, only that I desired to gain the best mastery of the information and concepts that I possibly could, whether that resulted in a grade of A or a grade of C. Why would you not want to do your personal best, whether that was a 100, or a 75? If that makes me competitive, so be it.

Additionally, the statement has been made that schools don't care about students, and only about keeping pass rates high. I can't speak for all schools, but this is certainly not the case where I teach. I know all my students. I know their strengths and their areas for improvement. I care about them as people. I am not interested in weeding out, cutting down someone's ego, trying to keep pass rates high.

The students are individuals to me, each with a family, an outside life, and a dream. I try to help them succeed in that. Sometimes, they do so naturally, with very little encouragement from me. Some of them require more guidance to be able to reach their goals. Occasionally one is not ready to safely provide care. I also owe an obligation to the public to ensure that the nurses that graduate are safe. It is painful to tell someone they aren't ready to be a safe and competent nurse yet. If just anyone is admitted, it isn't fair to the student as well. It is a lot of hard work to assist them in becoming ready. But I do help without regret because they are worth it to me. This is my passion. My students will go on to touch so many lives.

Past academic success is often predictive of how well a student will perform in nursing school. So many students who previously had a 4.0 come in and fail the first exam, but most of them quickly recover. I also see students with lower GPAs who make excellent nurses but must fight to maintain their grades. Great nurses come from all points in the GPA. But at a certain point it is not fair to accept someone who has little chance of academic success. You are offering them hope that is likely false. For example, should we admit a student with a 1.0 GPA because the student is compassionate? Is it fair to him or her to get them to spend countless amounts of time and money on schooling, when they are not likely to succeed? I currently see advisses who have these types of grades and want to be a nurse, with Ds and Fs in nearly every class. They often drop out after being placed on academic probation.

It makes me really disappointed to hear the statements on here that make a blanket statement that schools and instructors just want to weed people out. When I have to tell a student he or she has failed, it is very, very difficult. You don't see the tears that faculty often shed over a student who is going through a difficult time. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

Admissions criteria varies from institution to institution. To be as fair as possible to those entering the program, we need a criteria that can be uniformly applied. How do you measure compassion? By the standards of many posts made on allnurses.com, you would think that the majority of faculty are heartless and hellbent on ruining student lives. I've just shown you another side, one you may not have been privy to. You don't know the depths of someone's compassion by a quick meeting with them. Many times you don't even know it by spending years with them.

I learn more about my students all the time. I have watched, out of sight, to see who will hold the little old lady's hand when she is scared and alone and confused. I have watched to see who is kind to the student who is just a little different. My students are fantastic. They are both academically astute and compassionate. Maybe this is a rare phenomenon, but I doubt it. What tends to "weed out" those not suited for nursing is both the realization that school is not easy, combined with the first years of practice, when reality comes upon grads like a wave.

I agree with the above poster who noted that what we really need is more seats in nursing schools. You won't get that without more faculty. I fyou're really concerned with what is hurting nursing schools, look towards funding for education in general and nursing in particular. Ask yourself why nursing faculty make less as educators than in practice. Ask why an athlete that has saved nobody's life makes so many times more than an elementary school teacher who changes lives daily. Ask why I have to fight and write grants for modern equipment for my students to practice on, instead of this being recognized as necessary to their education. Ask why they are using mannikins that are older than I am. Ask why many faculty members put in 60-80 hour workweeks just to make sure the students have the best information possible. Many, many questions need to be and are being asked. If you want to make any difference, contact your legislators.

Specializes in Ante-Intra-Postpartum, Post Gyne.

I graduated cum laude and am a member of the international nursing honor society, busted my butt for it too. I am very compassionate, and sensitive, and empathetic, and caring, and intelligent. There is no rule that intelligent nurses can't be the sensitive nurses as well. I went into nursing because I care about taking care of others and want to some day become a nurse midwife and women's health practitioner and make a difference in women's lives; getting good grades for master's and DNP is not an option. I gave up my life for three years to keep my grades up. In fact I raised my GPA while in nursing school..and I never lost my compassion; if anything, attending a holistic nursing program helped me to become more caring and empathetic.

Although a well rounded nurse is ideal, when it comes down to it I would rather have an intelligent impersonal nurse taking care of me than the sweetest most caring box of rocks.

LiveToLearn, you have my deepest respect. I'm glad you have that type of program, and I would be lucky to have you teaching me.

But I stand by my initial observations. We may well be screening for the wrong thing, and hoping the "right" kind of person survives the process, rather than identifying them early on and helping the along.

Your program seems different, and that's wonderful. I clearly (at present) am in a dysfunctional one. I see the people leading it and I see the people poised to be graduated from it, and it scares me. I look at the Nurses the program has produced (from my recent perspectives as a patient) and I pray I never get so sick again that I have to be around these people.

I also suggest there's a difference between a Nurse who is technically competant but emotionally bankrupt, and a sweet "box of rocks" type. I think I'd go with the latter....assuming he or she managed to sweet-talk the NCLEX in the first place.

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