Is there REALLY a nursing shortage?

mattsmom81 · May 17, 2004

So true BigBadDog. We are meeting our labor need by allowing immigration of foreigners to fill the need. I have no problem with that, if they speak the language well and become legal citizens and meet responsibilities of citizenship. In other words, to become part of the 'melting pot' and be Americans first. if they come here to cash their extended family into america's welfare, SSD and Medicaid benefits, and to live 5 families to one house and send their $$$ back to their 3rd world country, I call them carpetbaggers. I do see too much of this today.

But...nobody seems to care. I work with BSN's from foreign countries who speak such poor English I worry about working with them. But bottom line... TPTB have a cheap, warm body that will draw liability away from them.

so...I do my job and avoid supervising these types. I don't need the liability.

trish820 · May 27, 2004

Where I live in Southern Ohio we have 20+ openings at the hospital that I work at and this is only for RN's.

Trish

eddy · Jul 13, 2004

Hospitals have stopped using agency all of the time, and they go back to them at some point or another. This has been going on for years. This is a fact, ask your agency. I have 25 years of agency to back up my claims, do you? How many agencies are you signed up with ? You can't expect one hospital chain to always keep you in work, That is not the idea of agency. They cover the hospital until they can get their staffing up, then something opens at another hospital.
Please get your facts straight before you post.
p.s. Another word for agency is "staff relief"!!!! that is exactly what it is...

Perfectly said.

eddy · Jul 13, 2004

Sounds a bit .... hmm what's the word?
Take a look at some of the posts. There are Pom's wanting to go to Australia and NZ. Aussies and kiwi's keen to go to UK and US. And I'm sure that there are Yanks who want to migrate as well. For a country founded on immigration it is a bit rude to cry that a foreigner (who is qualified and contributes to the economy from day one) takes "your" job. How many jobs do you want? Is America not the land of opportunity and freedom? What car do you drive, tv you watch, microwave you use or did you send those jobs OS?
Don't be so mean spirited about people wanting to better their lot. I am sure that if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be singing a different tune
ps I am not America bashing.

Good point. Actually here in the states I'm seeing a TON of ads lately trying to recruit US nurses to the UK, Eastern European nations, Middle East nations, etc. Seems that EVERYONE is in the same boat to me. :)

eddy · Jul 13, 2004

Actually, when people shop at Wal-Mart, they take jobs away from American workers. But Americans like the lower prices that cheap foreign labor provides.
Are we supposed to throw up trade barriers so Americans can have more jobs and pay higher prices?
Same thing with the Mexican immigrants who work in the California agriculture industry, which supplies cheap food for the rest of the nation. You want to pay higher grocery prices so Americans can have more of those jobs?
Protectionism of any kind doesn't work, and never has.

In fact, a closed nation by the "new law of world economics" is a poor nation.

The countries with the most open borders are in reality the richest, most advanced, healthiest and freeist (is that a word? hah) nations in the world.

The US, for example, didn't rise to be what it is because "ma and pa" worked harder than the rest of the world and demanded more money for their work. It is almost exclusively due to FREEDOM. In freedom comes the right to do and become whatever you want (within social boundaries). In turn, we were blessed with inventions and innovations by "immigrants" unhindered by the state. Don't blame Uncle Sam if you feel you are not getting your fair share. Find a new job or learn a new trade. Better yet, MAKE your own job. Don't blame a "foreigner" for doing what you could do as well or better.

I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".

We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...

While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....

Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...

mattsmom81 · Jul 14, 2004

WannabeLPN: Because there is also a shortage of Nursing Instructors.
/QUOTE]
Somebody also has to pay for expansion of programs..I guess TPTB are happy with all the government funds sent out to recruit and train new nurses recently...is that what the nursing schools have been waiting for? The government to bail them out and give them grant $$$?? Hmmm.

mattsmom81 · Jul 14, 2004

I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".
We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...
While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....
Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...

I completely agree...and your points form the basis of our capitalistic economy, which is why we are such a profitable nation too by the way. NAFTA has allowed US companies to stay competitive by allowing businesses to operate in countries where they don't have to pay 25 bucks an hour for a low or unskilled worker.

Sometimes I get put off too by the entitled attitudes in our country..and unions in some respects feed this mentality and support high wages for mediocrity. Although I believe in the idea of unions, it has gone too far...with truck drivers and assembly line workers making more than a nurse, teacher, police or fireman in too many cases. Because they're 'union' they feel they should dictate their value, and that doesn't make sense to me. Other things should apply and value and skill should play a bigger role than it does...but if wishes were horses, eh?

I don't mind migrants working in our fields, but if they're going to stay here they should do it legally and pay taxes to support the system, rather than utilizing our hospitals, schools, and human services/welfare $$ for free, get paid cash under the table, then hightailing it back to Mexico when things get hot.. I see a lot of this in Texas and friends of mine in California say its even worse there. Wish Bush would take a stronger stance on this issue personally.

If nurses want to come here and work legally, I think its fine...but like mentioned many times here; the real problem is not being addressed..and foreign recruitment is a bandaid solution. Many American women no longer like the role we are asked to play in today's nursing environments...but this is more than just an American entitlement issue... there are also physical 'nurse shortages' all over the world so its not just an American issue.T Many nurses get sick and tired of being treated like high paid slave labor and simply go into another line of work. But...as long as hospitals can recruit eager, meeker foreigners into nursing servitude, they no doubt will.The foreign nurses here are too scared they'll be sent back to ever buck the system from what I've seen. And IMO bucking the system is the only way we will help ourselves as nurses.

Sorry, guess I rambled here...lots of food for thought in this thread. :)

ShimmaShimma0304 · Jul 15, 2004

In fact, a closed nation by the "new law of world economics" is a poor nation.
The countries with the most open borders are in reality the richest, most advanced, healthiest and freeist (is that a word? hah) nations in the world.
The US, for example, didn't rise to be what it is because "ma and pa" worked harder than the rest of the world and demanded more money for their work. It is almost exclusively due to FREEDOM. In freedom comes the right to do and become whatever you want (within social boundaries). In turn, we were blessed with inventions and innovations by "immigrants" unhindered by the state. Don't blame Uncle Sam if you feel you are not getting your fair share. Find a new job or learn a new trade. Better yet, MAKE your own job. Don't blame a "foreigner" for doing what you could do as well or better.
I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".
We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...
While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....
Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...

Eddy-- In fact, a closed nation by the "new law of world economics" is a poor nation.

Marie-- I LOVE getting things from other countries, etc. I love the culture of other places and learning about other people. My problem lies with countries like China who treat their people as poorly as they do. I'm using China as an example... there are sweat shops and people working just as hard for a few cents per hour in other countries besides China, I know. For example... Do you think that Louie Vitton (spelling?) purse that celebrities walk around with and costs 25,000 dollars was really made for more than a few dollars? Or some of the shoes we're walking around wearing? It just makes me nauseated to think that those workers can get treated like they are and we're supporting the BIG guys (corporations) who ALLOW this to happen.

Eddy-- The countries with the most open borders are in reality the richest, most advanced, healthiest and freeist (is that a word? hah) nations in the world.

The US, for example, didn't rise to be what it is because "ma and pa" worked harder than the rest of the world and demanded more money for their work. It is almost exclusively due to FREEDOM. In freedom comes the right to do and become whatever you want (within social boundaries). In turn, we were blessed with inventions and innovations by "immigrants" unhindered by the state. Don't blame Uncle Sam if you feel you are not getting your fair share. Find a new job or learn a new trade. Better yet, MAKE your own job. Don't blame a "foreigner" for doing what you could do as well or better. I get so sick of Americans acting as if they are owed something simply because they are Americans. Last time I checked it was called the "Land of Opportunity" not the "Land of Guaranteed Employment".

Marie-- I never said I wanted my employment to be "guaranteed." You just see so many big businesses trying to save money and have "the little man" work for less and less and less. They expect HIGH QAULITY for LOW wages... are we trending toward Chinese working salaries where they get paid CENTS per hour? I mean, I seriously doubt that will happen in "my" lifetime but don't you notice a trend? Do you SEE many American-made products in Wal-mart. yes, we pay less there and save some money (yes I shop there too occasionally-- but) but I'd rather support American workers (to help secure their jobs)-- have you seen how many factories are closing?... not for poor quality work they're doing-- but so that the products can be made for cents per hour overseas by people who are working in poor conditions and who live in communist countries, etc. and so that large companies/corporations can make more money-- yes, they have every RIGHT to do that, but where do we draw the line??? I have nothing against the people making the products overseas... it's their countries who are ONLY PAYING THEM CENTS PER HOUR and who don't CARE what kind of conditions they're working in... these are CHILDREN in MOST cases who are working in sweatshops and making our wedding dresses, our wicker furniture, our toys; I could go on and on and on. And not everyone in America has the ability to go to school AND support their families if they're job gets swiped from underneath them all of a sudden because some millionaire or billionaire wants to make a few more million/billion. How many different skills/trades must you become an expert in/on in order to make a dollar? Do you understand what I'm saying?

Eddy-- We are in a World Economy these days. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing? Sure, if all we bought was Chinese made stuff we'd have a problem. However, in that case, the problem isn't WHERE we are spending our dollar, it's why can't we be as efficient as the Chinese. In that case it's time to build something different or get better. NOT subsidize or put up trade barriers to protect our obselete "stuff". I hear that strategy didn't fare to well for the USSR. haha...

Marie-- Like I said above... I'd rather support my American worker if it's only a few dollars more... seriously. That's just ME. I'm not rich but I don't like supporting communist countries who treat their employees/slaves, if you will, as they do. Would I support a puppy mill over a reputable breeder? Why would I support an evil communist country or ANY country who treats their workers SO POORLY when I could put it towards people who ARE skilled and who are working hard at a factory in a free America? If I don't support my country and the workers HERE, then they definately will falter and will NOT have jobs. If the trend keeps on like it does and eventually all of our products get made in other countries... what will American workers have as a trade to turn to??? I seriously wonder what will eventually happen. Granted, I can't buy EVERYTHING American, but I can certainly TRY to buy American when it's possible.

Eddy-- While that seems to have strayed from foriegn labor issues, it's actually more closely related than you would think....

Sorry... strayed off topic somewhat, but the underlying feeling is still based on this conversation. haha...

Marie-- This *is* an interesting discussion, isn't it??? :)

elkpark · Jul 15, 2004

. If a guy in China can make a cheaper DVD player of acceptable quality than an American can..... well... I'm buying the one made in China. Please explain to me how it is socially or fiscally responsible to pay MORE for the same thing?

It's socially responsible because China and many other countries use slave labor, prison labor, and child labor to make the products that are a few bucks cheaper than the US made products. The people who are doing the work in the other countries are exploited, abused, and living in horrible conditions. If you want to consider that to be "efficiency," go ahead, but I would rather pay a few dollars more and have a clear conscience.

ShimmaShimma0304 · Jul 15, 2004

It's socially responsible because China and many other countries use slave labor, prison labor, and child labor to make the products that are a few bucks cheaper than the US made products. The people who are doing the work in the other countries are exploited, abused, and living in horrible conditions. If you want to consider that to be "efficiency," go ahead, but I would rather pay a few dollars more and have a clear conscience.

{{{{{APPLAUSE, CHEERS, AND MORE APPLAUSE}}}}}

Well said, Elkpark!!! :) Now THAT'S what I was trying to get accross as well. Why can't people see this? People need to be educated... we're supporting a communist country by buying things "Made in China" and the like.

eddy · Jul 20, 2004

Marie-- I LOVE getting things from other countries, etc. I love the culture of other places and learning about other people. My problem lies with countries like China who treat their people as poorly as they do. I'm using China as an example... there are sweat shops and people working just as hard for a few cents per hour in other countries besides China, I know. For example... Do you think that Louie Vitton (spelling?) purse that celebrities walk around with and costs 25,000 dollars was really made for more than a few dollars? Or some of the shoes we're walking around wearing? It just makes me nauseated to think that those workers can get treated like they are and we're supporting the BIG guys (corporations) who ALLOW this to happen.

Eddy-- Good points. However, more often than not, people get QUITE excited to work in these "sweat shops" that American corporations put up. While the working conditions and compensation seem substandard to us, they generally are MUCH better than their locally owned "sweat shops". I don't intend to justify poor working conditions. Far from it. I am a very outspoken advocate of improved working conditions. My point merely being that it is generally viewed as an IMPROVEMENT when a yankee company comes to town. Pay raises and improved conditions. Local companies generally get quite angry because it often forces them to "raise the bar" in terms of conditions and compensation... because the local workforce has been given a CHOICE.

Marie-- I never said I wanted my employment to be "guaranteed." You just see so many big businesses trying to save money and have "the little man" work for less and less and less. They expect HIGH QAULITY for LOW wages... are we trending toward Chinese working salaries where they get paid CENTS per hour? I mean, I seriously doubt that will happen in "my" lifetime but don't you notice a trend?

Eddy-- People are compensated according to a supply and demand curve. If there are tons of people willing to work for the current wage (or less)... enough to satisfy the required number of quality people for the position(s) required, there is no sense in raising pay. If Americans expect too much pay for the job, THAT'S when they go elsewhere. It's the world we live in. I do notice a trend. But not the one you are speaking of. The trend is in technology. We are increasingly able to do more with less. This also means less people. Those who learn and embrase the changing world will benefit. Those who insist on "protecting their way of life" in increasingly obselete job roles will suffer. US companies in general are becoming more and more reliant on technology and information to maintain a competive advantage. The big money is going to those workers who DEVELOP that competive advantage. We can't subsidize an obsolete group of workers.

Marie-- Do you SEE many American-made products in Wal-mart.

Eddy-- Yup. The Sam's Choice line (walmart's private label) among many countless others.

Marie-- yes, we pay less there and save some money (yes I shop there too occasionally-- but) but I'd rather support American workers (to help secure their jobs)

Eddy-- By shopping at Walmart, you are still supporting countless American workers. Truck drivers, clerks, accountants, HR people, granny greeters, inventory people, etc. etc.... And a great deal of the products on Walmart shelves are in fact American made.

Marie-- have you seen how many factories are closing?... not for poor quality work they're doing-- but so that the products can be made for cents per hour overseas by people who are working in poor conditions and who live in communist countries, etc. and so that large companies/corporations can make more money--yes, they have every RIGHT to do that, but where do we draw the line???

Eddy-- I mentioned it above, blame technology. Granted I say that as I sit here happily employed. :) But it's really becoming a BLAME game. Also, it's not ALWAYS companies looking to save a buck. Increasingly, some unions are bullying US companies to the point they just can't AFFORD to operate in the US anymore. It can also be said that we as consumers just don't want to pay that much to replace (or merely add to) most of the stuff we ALREADY have that is working fine in the first place. Like a bigger TV, a cooler stereo, etc.... In order to get people to buy this stuff, prices have to decrease. In order for prices to decrease, overhead must do the same. If you've ever bought a 30 dollar DVD player, a 10 dollar phone, a 25 dollar boombox, a calculator for less than a buck, etc. you likely participated in the process as well. In the meantime companies in the US are begging for more IT professionals, engineers, etc. and paying top dollar to get them to come to America because we simply can't produce enough of them ourselves. Blame education for that one I guess.... hehe...

Marie-- I have nothing against the people making the products overseas... it's their countries who are ONLY PAYING THEM CENTS PER HOUR and who don't CARE what kind of conditions they're working in...

Eddy-- I wasn't aware the countries were writing the checks.

Marie-- these are CHILDREN in MOST cases who are working in sweatshops and making our wedding dresses, our wicker furniture, our toys; I could go on and on and on.

Eddy-- I think "MOST" is a bit of an overstatement. SOMETIMES would probably fit better.

Marie-- And not everyone in America has the ability to go to school AND support their families if they're job gets swiped from underneath them all of a sudden because some millionaire or billionaire wants to make a few more million/billion. How many different skills/trades must you become an expert in/on in order to make a dollar? Do you understand what I'm saying?

Eddy-- I understand what you are saying. I just don't entirely agree with it. 1) You don't have to go to school to learn a new trade/skill. Books are free, and so is the ability to read them. 2) A millionaire is not rich by today's standards. 3) Very few large companies are privately held, so it's not just one fat cat making these decisions, it's stockholders, and there are thousands, sometimes millions of them that would like to make a little money from their shares or their mutual funds containing said shares. 4) You need to know as many skills/trades as it TAKES to make a dollar. For instance, it's simply not my problem if you are a steam engine builder and jets are the only thing in demand these days. 5) It's better for us (ME AND YOU) if a US company is still open and using foreign factories rather than closing due to financial insolvency. At least they are still contributing tax dollars, service and support jobs in the US, AND helping the economy.

Marie-- Like I said above... I'd rather support my American worker if it's only a few dollars more... seriously. That's just ME. I'm not rich but I don't like supporting communist countries who treat their employees/slaves, if you will, as they do.

Eddy-- By buying foreign made products you are still supporting American workers. It still takes people to sell it to you, to deliver it to the stores to sell it, to count the money from selling it, to develop the software to track it, on and on.

Marie-- Would I support a puppy mill over a reputable breeder? Why would I support an evil communist country or ANY country who treats their workers SO POORLY when I could put it towards people who ARE skilled and who are working hard at a factory in a free America? If I don't support my country and the workers HERE, then they definately will falter and will NOT have jobs. If the trend keeps on like it does and eventually all of our products get made in other countries... what will American workers have as a trade to turn to??? I seriously wonder what will eventually happen. Granted, I can't buy EVERYTHING American, but I can certainly TRY to buy American when it's possible.

Eddy-- If you support the "little guy", buy one from the pound. The fine breeds from breeders AND puppy mills will find homes. :) hehehe.... just being a dork. The reality is that the traditional "jobs" are and will continue to deminish in America. It's not becuase of greed, it's because of economic reality.

Marie-- This *is* an interesting discussion, isn't it??? :)

Eddy-- Yea, but I've got a headache now, and we're really doing this in the wrong forum. hehe...

goliath738 · Jan 3, 2005

I am considering a career in nursing. I was wondering if there is really a nursing shortage or hospitals are making it up to bring in cheaper labor from other countries.