I think nurses share some of the blame for the nursing shortage. - page 6
I read recently that only 12% of all nurses are under the age of 30. Being a new graduate BSN and practicing nursing for 18 months, I found that statistic pretty horrifying. I have been visiting... Read More
Sep 13, '04Occupation: RN labor and delivery. previously telemetry and diabetic education Joined: Aug '04; Posts: 339; Likes: 30Doctors and especially specialists, make good money. Yes , they have overhead, but techs and nurses in offices usually make less than those who work in hospitals...Phebotomists, techs, etc, may have wildly busy times BUT they don't have multiple tasks and responsibilities as do most nurses covering specific patients. They don't have to answer as much to doctors or management in the way nurses do...This phenomenon is vastly different than nursing ...All areas described have stressors but few if any can even approach that of nursing and the ones that do, as in the case of docs, are usually much better compensated for it..
Sep 13, '04Joined: Sep '04; Posts: 120; Likes: 9To the OP: I'm no English scholar by any stretch of the imagination but if you are a nurse (with a business degree), and especially if you are going to medical school, I would think you will have to improve upon your use of/ dramatically. As someone who has been taking college courses on and off for years, I have not had a single instructor who would have overlooked such errors. I'm not flaming you, it is going to be a very real issue should you decide to further your education.
Sep 13, '04Occupation: Operating Room Nurse Specialty: 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER ; From: US ; Joined: Jun '03; Posts: 17,036; Likes: 1,006A couple of posts on this thread (on page 7) show my reason for why i think that a portion of the shortage is caused by other nurses. :stone
Sep 13, '04Joined: Sep '04; Posts: 120; Likes: 9Quote from altomgaWow! You don't need to apologize for anything...you are absolutely right![ Like I said am a new nurse that graduated with my BSN and also with a Business degree. So I am keen to pick up on why things do not work. ]
Nurses that eat their young...well..yes some do, but on the other hand a preceptor sometimes has to be tough in order to ensure that the new nurse will be competent on their own...I want to make sure that the person will be able to intervene in a patient situation and/or know their resources..you won't always have someone there to bail you out.
I apologize for my rudeness..I do get somewhat offensive when newbies try to come in and tell us OLDIES what our problem is. Experience here does have the upper hand only in that we have been dealing with it much longer. And that is not to say a fresh perspective doesn't help, just be constructive with it!
(I'd like to add a little levity...our instructor in nursing school had us watch "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." She told us specifically, that before we judge Nurse Ratched we need to think about what we just might be like after a few years working in a psychiatric ward and we might understand things from her perspective a little better. Even after a few years of working in a nursing home I ALREADY understand!)
Sep 13, '04Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 4,389; Likes: 153Quote from Hellllllo NurseActually, there are shortages in other health care areas. For example, here's some articles on shortages involving pharmacists, respiratory and physical therapists:As a person gets older and needs more health care, they will also need more doctors, more specialists. They will need more labs drawn, need more phlebotomists, lab techs, pharmacists, X-ray techs, physical therapists, medical billing people, and on and on.
Explain why there are no "shortages" in these fields?
You may notice that a couple of the articles mention the aging baby boom generation as a reason for the shortages.
And, there are probably more shortages in professions requiring more education ... since more education presents more barriers to entry into the field. Therefore, you'd probably be short on nurses, pharmacists and therapists, but not necessarily short on techs, phelbotomists and billing clerks.
Last edit by Sheri257 on Sep 14, '04
Sep 14, '04Joined: Sep '04; Posts: 27; Likes: 23I agree with your statement about the abuse cycle. And I think it is something that often has its roots in nursing programs when nursing students get vindictive instructors who are either verbally abusive to them or just vindictive and mean. It seem to have the strange effect of turning ordinarily "kind and regular" students into future abusers. It reminds me of the military and their "pinning ceremonies". When new pilots earn their wings, the CO's take the wings and pound the steel pin (that attaches to the tie tack) into the new pilot's bare chest with their fist. It's a stupid "rite of passage" to see how much pain they can take ("get in one final lick before they graduate"). What happens 10 or 15 years later? The pilots who were pinned do the same thing to a new class of graduates. It's a "heh I had to go through it, so you damn well are going to go through it to". I think some nursing instructors have the same thought process, and it does have a negative affect on new nurses. I personally was never treated badly by nurses at clinicals. They weren't all cheery and happy, a few had a rather cool attitude toward me- but they were never rude or abusive toward me. On the other hand, I, and some of my unfortunate classmates, have had to endure certain clinical instructors who seemed almost sociopathic in their efforts to demean students and try to fail them on clinicals and in their courses. What is the end result of this? A new batch of graduated nurses, both male and female, who may already feel a little jaded and ticked off as they begin practicing the profession - and perhaps a few of them will evolve into the next generation of "pinners".
Quote from Hellllllo NurseI do think that nurses themselves have played a part in what is percieved as a nursing "shortage" but I think the number1 reason is too many pts per nurse.
You said it yourself- new grads leaving because of unsafe pt loads-
These are young nurses, new grads leaving. I think it is a myth that nurses getting older and retiring is the reason for the "shortage."
As for why some nurses "eat their young" here is my theory-
We all know that many people whom have been abused as children grow up to abuse their own children, and those children may likely abuse their children, and the cycle perpetuates itself.
I think the same thing is happening in nursing. So many nurses have been treated like crap and abused for so long, that they now abuse "their young", and many of those bright-eyed, eager young nurses may someday become beaten down, unhappy, bitter women who perpetuate the cycle by being hateful to the new nurses coming along, and so it goes.
I think that many in nursing feel devalued, impotent, powerless. They feel like victims. Just as in childhood abuse, sometimes the only time a victim does not feel like a victim is when they take on the role of the abuser.
I believe this is why many nurses "eat their young."Last edit by Snoopd on Sep 15, '04
Sep 14, '04Joined: Aug '04; Posts: 19what do you think if nurses had a union as strong as the massachusetts police in which they control the state legislators..
the legislators will not dare take away their 'details' even though many are found to be 'double dippin'
It would be the equivalent of physicians controling administrators in health care facilities today.........!
Quote from NRSKarenRNEven JCAHO has realized that patient casualties are tied to gaps in nursing -as reported in my previous activism post.
Health Care at the Crossroads: Strategies for Addressing the Evolving Nursing Crisis
See: Create a Culture of Retention and Ways to Bolsture Nursing Infrastructure (all but decimated in most facilities due to budget cutting) in report.
From pg 30 of report:
"Once hired, new nurses receive an average of 30 days of training, in contrast with the three months of hands-on training provided five years ago.123"
THIS IS HAPPENING WHILE PATIENT ACUITY IS SKY HIGH!! Know wonder burnout is happening!
From Pg 31:
"Graduate medical education, which is funded in substantial part through the Medicare program, is standardized by discipline under
the purview of the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education. For nursing, there are no structured residency programs,no standards, no oversight body to assume that the standards are met, and no funding."
SOLUTIONS offered on Pg 33 include:
"Establish standardized post-graduate nurse residency programs, a nursing equivalent of the Accreditation Council for
Graduate Medical Education, and funding to support this training."
Check out and support the recommendations JCAHO are suggesting. In your meetings with administration, trot out this report, for JCAHO has a lot of weight in getting conditions CHANGED (for fear of losing accreditation).
Sep 14, '04Joined: Jan '04; Posts: 9,601; Likes: 3,187have you ever seen the cartoon of the little fish being eaten by a larger fish while an evern larger fish is swooping down with a even larger fish about to eat him on and on
this is how some places turn out...the mds jump on the rns who bark at an lpn who take it out on a cna....someone has to break the cycle....some times the students get caught up in the middle...and sometimes----the students come in just waiting to show off their new found knowledge...knowledge which they are sure the rns, lpn, and cnas are just waiting for with bated breath.....
Sep 15, '04Joined: Aug '04; Posts: 48; Likes: 13I do agree that nurses need to develope a higher respect for each other. I have had many bad experiences with professors, co-workers etc. The lesson I have learned is to not talk about other nurses in a negative way but compliment them on the good things they do. (It has to start somewhere) "She great at starting I.V.'s or he's really knowledgeable in that area." I have found this to help me not be so catty and it has caught on to others around me. Nurses love to be complimented like everyone else. I make it a rule to compliment two nurses on every shift I work. It help keeps the relationships between us good and it shows other nurses the positive side of their co-workers. Start it where you work and see how it catches on. Try not to get caught up in the "click" and be friends with everyone. There will be a few nurses you can't change and that's a personality issue on their part, not yours. But it may make them smile. Nurses need to stop demanding respect and start giving it. Soon we will see other professionals giving it to us also. Let's do a study on this. Try this for say 3-4 months where you work (complimenting others instead of saying she's/he's dangerous etc.) Come back and tell me the results on if it has changed anything in your department. Watch and see!!!!Quote from thegameI read recently that only 12% of all nurses are under the age of 30. Being a new graduate BSN and practicing nursing for 18 months, I found that statistic pretty horrifying. I have been visiting this site for about three months now and various nurses are trying to find out solutions to the nursing shortage and who to blame.
First off I think nurses need to share some of that blame. Like I said am a new nurse that graduated with my BSN and also with a Business degree. So I am keen to pick up on why things do not work. First off our normal nursing class size usually max out at thirty-five students. Our class started out with 27 students because the program did not receive enough applications to fill the class. During my last two years we lost 5 students out of the program not because of low grade or they failed out, most were top of our class, mostly because of lack of respect they received from nursing instructors and nursing staff at the local hospitals where we did our clinical.
LPN's and Rn's alike would ridicule most of the students. They would openly complain about us to the patients and to staff members alike. During report we would hear the RN's say "al my gosh we have students today, today would be a good day to call in sick". Don't get me wrong there was some educators that did a good gob and greeted us with open arms, but a majority of the time the staff was very disrespectful from RN's to Nursing Assistant's. Most of the teaching came from physicians if we had the opportunity to rounds with.
After graduation I passed my boards on the first try and took a job on a Medical Surgical floor. The first night was highly anticipated and was looking forward to my new career. I reported to the charge nurse who did not expect me and did not know who to put me with. Eventually they put me with a LVN who was very intolerable to teaching others and I seemed like a burden to her. Eventually I just left and told the charge nurse I was very disappointed by the way things was run here and left in middle of my shift.
Eventually I did land a job that did really well in teaching me the ins and outs of nursing. I would actually check on my fellow graduates after a year of last seeing them. One of my fellow students informed me that four other nurses got out of nursing they did not feel safe with the patient load given to them and very little mentoring from senior nurses.
I am 26 years of age, kind of old for a new graduate. I worked in other professions such and engineering as a drafter and sales. Never have I worked in a profession that fellow professionals were so rude and uncaring to each other. I have several friends who are physicians that talked me to going back to school and finish my classes to apply to Medical School, they openly joke about how nurses are very disrespectfully to each other and how senior nurses eat their young.
If the nursing profession were such a great career as most of you described, there would not be a shortage. I agree that that the aging baby boomer poses a challenge and is one of the reasons but I think we need to look in the mirror and accept some of the blame.
So in closing if you get a new graduated in the floor, accept them with open arms instead of treating them like a burden.
Sep 15, '04Occupation: ICU Joined: May '03; Posts: 134; Likes: 7With the agency I work for I do prn shifts in the Baptist Health System hospitals including St. Luke's Hospital. It's amazing how the hospitals can all be in the same system and yet so completely different. I recently had surgery at St. Luke's and the staff, especially my pre-op RN were so great I have praised them over and over to anyone who will listen!
I work at St. Luke's. SO many people say the same thing Thats why i work there!!!!
Dec 22, '05Occupation: hospice RN Specialty: hospice, home care, LTC ; Joined: Jun '05; Posts: 82; Likes: 47I'm currently in nursing scholl, just completed NSG 101 with a final grade of A. My first clinical instructor was of the young-eating kind, and if it weren't for the support of each other, I believe that 3 of the students in this clinical would have quit. I just kept in mind the fact that I have much to offer my future clients and that no one is going to knock me out!
Dec 22, '05Joined: Oct '05; Posts: 775; Likes: 26The nursing shortage is due to a lack of schools...period! See the "Nursing News" article "32,000 students turned away". We may not be as nice to each other as we could be on certain occasions but we are not that bad! When was the last time you heard about nurses fist fighting? Happens all the time in the construction field. Taxi drivers flip each other off & office politics are brutal. Every field has it's rotten apples and nursing is no different nor does it have a bigger problem. "Eating our young" is a steriotype that is just not true. IMHO.
Dec 22, '05Occupation: RN Specialty: 17 year(s) of experience ; From: US ; Joined: May '04; Posts: 1,427; Likes: 376Quote from SFCardiacRNI disagree.The nursing shortage is due to a lack of schools...period! See the "Nursing News" article "32,000 students turned away". We may not be as nice to each other as we could be on certain occasions but we are not that bad! When was the last time you heard about nurses fist fighting? Happens all the time in the construction field. Taxi drivers flip each other off & office politics are brutal. Every field has it's rotten apples and nursing is no different nor does it have a bigger problem. "Eating our young" is a steriotype that is just not true. IMHO.
"Eating our young" is not a stereotype, it's alive and well.
The many comments from new grads as well as students in clinicals on this very forum alone is evidence of that.
It's not pervasive on every hospital unit, but it's there in significant numbers.
As far as fist fighting goes, I'd personally rather have a knock-down, drag out fist fight with a co-worker and be done with it any day, rather than endure the day to day horizontal violence that goes on in our field.
If someone decides that they don't like you for whatever reason, the drama and bull$%!! drags on day after day.
I'd rather have someone just beat the crap out of me and get it over with than try to daily threaten my job and even my license that I worked so hard to get.
Nurses are micro-managed on so many levels, yet are often severely under-supervised and not kept in check when it comes to how we are allowed to treat each other.