BSN vs. ADN - page 8

I am a BSN and I feel that I should be paid more for my extra education. What do you think?... Read More

  1. by   askater
    emmidee Yes!! Common sense is important. I know ADN's without common sense and BSN's. It's a very small amount of nurses. But there's some out there. Hey come to think of it, I know one or two Dr.'s without the best common sense.

    [This message has been edited by askater (edited July 05, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by askater (edited July 05, 2000).]
  2. by   ratchit
    Well, after reading my own prior post I will admit to not answering the question of should a BSN get paid more than an ADN. (50 lashes with a wet noodle- I know better than to type before the coffee hits the bloodstream...) A BSN gives no additional preparedness for a staff RN position than an ADN, in mine and many people's opinions. Perhaps some advantage for a management position, but I haven't met a new grad yet who went right into management. (Although some managers seem to have less comprehension of patient care needs than freshman students.. ) So while I can understand a BSN or higher requirement for a management position, if the BSN and I are doing the same job, we should be paid the same. I absolutely endorse rewarding experience, hard to find off-shift staff, and unit leadership (CNS, Charge, etc.) but the same job merits the same pay.
  3. by   Angela Barnes
    Boy is this a hot topic with some of us! I am a new grad and newly liscensed, fresh out of a BSN program. I decided to get my BSN, mainly because by the time I made a definate decision to go into nursing, I already had one associate's degree. I decided that if I was going for two more years, I might as well go for the BSN. At the hospital where I work, the BSN nurses make $.50 more an hour than the other RN's. We also received an extra $1000 on our sign-on bonus. The extra $.50 is not a lot, but I feel that it at least recognizes the extra time that I spent in school. I realize that we all do the same job, and that BSN's have only a few more nursing classes than ADN's. I also am smart enough to know that I'm going to listen to ANY nurse who can give me guidance when I start working on the floor next week, whether it be from a nurse from a diploma program, a LPN, ADN, or BSN. Experience counts more in this field than any other factor, in my opinion, and I'm more than willing to listen to those who have been around longer than me. Those extra literature or science courses that I took may not directly affect my patient care, just as the lack of them in an ADN program may not affect patient care, however, I feel that nurses with a BSN do deserve something for furthering their education. My husband is a police officer, and once he receive his bachelor's degree next semester, he will be making a higher wage then those without the degree. And his degree will be in English, which is basically unrelated to his career. How then, can it be said that those with a more advanced degree in the actual field in which they are working should not be compensated? I agree with one of the above posters, who stated that there should be one pathway to becoming an RN. This topic would no longer be an issue, or a cause of conflict. I would have still taken my job if I hadn't been offered the BSN incentive, but it's nice to know that my employer does recognize the extra effort I put forth and the additional education that I have attained.
  4. by   LRM
    Good luck for your new job angela, i finish my degree this year & am looking forward to getting out there as an RN also. Here in oz is where we have only one pathway for RN, we used to have hospital trained rns but that is fazed out, all must do degree with uni for BN. However, hospital trained are still respected within workforce (experience does count) & pay scales are same (see post june 21st)

  5. by   Sooner
    Sorry this will be a long one! The following is an excerpt from an article in the June 14 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association regarding the reforms necessary to head off cycles of nursing shortages:

    "In regional focus groups conducted by the American Assoc. of Colleges of Nursing on factors associated with declining enrollments in BSN programs, educators noted consistently that potential BSN students were 'discouraged from pursuing a nursing career by the confusing array of entry level options available in the profession' and noted that such confusion has lead to many secondary school guidance counselors and students 'to not view nursing as an intellectual endeaver'. Moreover, at the same time that BSN enrollments are declining, increasing evidence shows an association between between health care quality and the education level of the nursing staff, the number of RNs in the clinical setting and the perceived value placed on nursing staff by the practice setting.
    These findings have been researched and documented in "magnet" hospitals that have been identified as good places to practice nursing and are recognized for their ability to attract and retain RNs in times of shortage. Such facilities not only give nurses greater staus and more autonomy over their own practice and experience lower nurse burnout rates, but have also been found to have significantly lower mortality and higher satisfaction in pts. that do non-magnet hospitals. Magnet hospitals also have a higher proportion of nursing staff prepared at the baccalaureate level (average 59% compared to 34% for all hospitals).
    Indeed, in a 1999 study of chief nurse officers at major health systems, respondents reported their preference for an average of 70% of staff nurses to be prepared with bachelor's degrees, citing better critical thinking, leadership, prevention and patient education skills among BSN graduates compared to nurse with associate-degree or diploma education.
    ...'practice environments should be restructured to emply nursing staff according to their differing educational and patient care capabilitites. In particular, practice settings should allow for the full utilization of the professional-level competencies of BSN graduates'."
  6. by   LRM
    What an interesting article Sooner, I would have to agree that if there was one entry path for RN more potential nurses will apply due to the min. confusion, however in oz we are starting to experience a shortage also. Our undergrad nos aren't decreasing so much but maybe our nurses are heading of to the USA & UK for the big bucks that are dangling in front of them to overcome their shortages?

    Having one entry path for RN & everyone with BSN with have to have an impact on decreasing horizontal violence (some will still eat their young though)

    Interesting that nurse with degree was preferred r/t critical thinking & leadership qualities. Maybe the administrators in that hospital have a preference for the single entry path hence favour all RNs to be BSN qualified.

    I must say that after learning sbout your system in states I was astounded at the entry paths available to RNs. I never knew there was such confusion & am pleased that I have been able to gain some insight into the problems associated with this system.
    Thanks everyone.
  7. by   Mijourney
    Hi again,
    Sooner, thanks for your very informative and encouraging information from a piece in JAMA. This information additionally supports why it is important to establish BSN as entry level into nursing practice. As a result, I will repeat that I am strongly in favor of 3 year clinicals in the BSN programs. I am also in favor of certification as a aide or tech prior to graduation from nursing school. Patient care and mentalities are now too complex to deal with for someone who does not have any health and medical exposure. I also don't know of any other health or medical related discipline facing the dilemma of varied educational backgrounds for the same title.
    Emmidee, I can appreciate where you're coming from with your posts but realize that low priority and/or value placed on advanced educational status no doubt contributes to the lag in pay in the South behind other regions of the country with the exception of a few pockets. Possibly nurses can even garner more respect from physicians by formally closing the educational gap. When you think about it, there is such a wide distance between 2 years and 12 years even taking when you take years of experience into consideration. I believe someone mentioned in an earlier post about nursing still being looked upon as an adjunct job (my words)because predominately women get in it to supplement a breadwinner's income. I feel that one of the major ways to overcome this stigma is to establish a higher educational standard. As I wrote before, I respect any nurse that can competently and sanely perform bedside care, but the reality is that the nursing profession seems to be spinning its wheels.
  8. by   LRM
    Hi all, just out of curiosity, do the different programs have different clinical components? I get the impression that the BSN degree course does not have clinical involved & that this must be undertaken externally? Also, there is talk of prereqqisits for the courses, do you have to do some assistant nursing or 'tech' clinical work first?

    It sounds VERY confusing? No wonder the young school students don't jump to enrol in nursing, it must be a nightmare trying to determine which path to take & then if it is going to be worth doing a degree or not. Appreciate the feedback. Lee
  9. by   A working nurse
    I am an RN that first acquired my associate degree and went on to get my BSN. I believe that my higher education does not "entitle" me to increased wages for my position as a hospital staff nurse. I sat for the same licensing examination that my associate degree coworkers did, and we all have the same R.N. after our name. I do not believe, goldilocks, that my fellow coworkers should recognize me for my hard work, we ALL work hard providing patient care. A BSN does NOT make me a better person or even a better nurse. A BSN, however, does give a nurse more career options. Management, teaching, and military nursing (VA hospitals) require a bachelor's degree. For advanced practice nursing a bachelor's degree is just the first step to acquiring your necessary master's degree. A nurse should pursue a BSN not for higher wages for the same job, but increased opportunities in nursing, and yes, those increased job opportunities will bring higher wages.
  10. by   PPL
    Let's see, I was a CNA, QMA, AAS/RN, BS. The program I went to, did not allow you to go straight into a BSN. It was a 2+2 program; you earned your Associate Applied Science in Nursing, then took the board and reapply to BSN after a year of being RN, if one so chose. Of course, they encouraged you to come back for BSN. I wanted a BS, but not a BSN, so went that direction. Now, they have the program set up to choose either/or AAS or BSN, with no waiting period. I also have my psych certification, which I paid for myself, as well as paying for all but two courses of my BS. I have never been paid a cent more for any of this, but I believe it does open doors into management, etc., if one chooses that path, which I have not. In the fantasy world, I think it would be great to be compensated for the extra time/money spent, but in the real world, that's oft not the case; at least in nursing. As far as more initials making one a better nurse, I don't think so, but I think furthering your education can bring personal fulfillment, and possible opportunity one might not have without it. I have never signed anything but RN after my name, but certainly don't fault those who do. In fact, I say toot your horn, you earned it!
  11. by   Mijourney
    Originally posted by LRM:
    Hi all, just out of curiosity, do the different programs have different clinical components? I get the impression that the BSN degree course does not have clinical involved & that this must be undertaken externally? Also, there is talk of prereqqisits for the courses, do you have to do some assistant nursing or 'tech' clinical work first?

    It sounds VERY confusing? No wonder the young school students don't jump to enrol in nursing, it must be a nightmare trying to determine which path to take & then if it is going to be worth doing a degree or not. Appreciate the feedback. Lee
    Hi LRM,
    My two cents and more is that in the States, it is indeed very confusing, because nursing is one of those professions that never really got grounded as a true profession. It is also a greatly exploited occupation in this country as are other female-dominated professions.
    I can appreciate the argument same pay for same work. However, it's unfortunate we can't seem to come to an agreement that we should all come out of school from the same starting line. We continue to side-track ourselves with who has the superior nursing program and graduates. I feel that starting from the same starting line is especially important in nursing where the same wheels have been spinning for decades, and the frustration, responsibility and accountability levels are increasing. I am very proud to be a diploma-based nurse. When I went back for my BSN, I was not only considering the potential work opportunities I would have, but the expansion of my knowledge base in nursing. I was not considering that I would be better than anyone, as I still feel no shame in gently cleaning a behind, placing someone on a bedpan, or emptying trash. In fact, this is the time, I learn more about my clients. Maybe that is the diploma backround in me. Nursing leadership and management principles do not only apply to administrative office activities. It also has to do with the wholism of one's nursing practice. Again, patient care and mentalities are too complex to continue nursing in its historical and current form. Again, we should consider the fact that if we can close some of the educational gap between nurses and physicians, that our pay may follow. All RNs should be grandfathered over a certain period of time into the BSN level with an increase in pay. To me, it just seems like we may be the only "developed" country and "super power" that has not come to this conclusion. Can anyone verify? Yes, I know, the nursing shortage will preempt establishing BSN as entry level for now. But now is the time for strategizing for the future.

    [This message has been edited by Mijourney (edited July 15, 2000).]
  12. by   esdrn
    I think that the only person who would think this, is a person who does not have a BSN degree. By the way it is "responsibility" not responsabilitie. I knew this before the BSN degree.
    Originally posted by Babette777:
    Well, to be blunt.... no!

    I think salary should reflect the level of responsabilitie... not the level of education.

    If you're working on the same ward as an R.N. without a BSN and are taking on the same amount of responsabilitie and you both have the same amount of experience you should get the same pay check at the end of the day.

    It's as simple as that.

  13. by   BarbRN
    Well I would like to enlighten some of the BSN's. I am an ADN I have been an RN for 4+ years. I was a Home health aide and a Nurse Tech for 6 years prior. I have worked my back end off to get where I am right now. As of last Friday (with only my ADN) I was promoted to Patient Care Supervisor at a Hospice Agency. I work in 2 cities at the present moment. I was put in the position and I proved myself in 6 short months. I received a $6,000 a year raise. So any ADN's out there that think you can only get a supervisors position in nursing homes or hospitals as charge nurse think twice. This is the second largest Hospice in the nation.

    So good luck to all. You can do it if you can do the work and prove yourself.

    Tulsa, OK