Future of CRNAs

Kiwi, BSN, RN · Jun 3, 2005

A few years ago, the University of Louisville tried to establish a NA program. The dean told me that it was too expensive to establish and there were not enough eligible faculty. So many students have tried to suggest a program at UofL. When I was in the Nursing SGA the topic was frequently brought up at meetings with the school administrators. The dean decided to take UofL in a research direction. I am convinced that it must be quite an undertaking to start a NA program.

As far as RNs making a substantial salary -- they deserve it! It's been discussed here before: you can make plenty of money as a nurse without getting more certs or getting more education. I commend them for being proactive and banding together to acheive a goal. Not to take this thread in another direction or anything, but shouldn't we encourage the advancement of all nurses? (no pun intended to the name of the website) :)

sunnyjohn · Jun 3, 2005

Where I live, the nurses only make about $20 or less per hour than the CRNA's and they don't have the responsibility of a CRNA. It is making some of the CRNA's angry because the nurses keep asking for raises and the CRNA's are not getting raises as often as the nurses if they get one at all.

So if the staff nurse make $20 an hour on average the CRNA makes $40

40x 2080 hours=$83200 before taxes.

Is that a fare wage? I am curious.

Nitecap · Jun 3, 2005

I guess I understand a little more then, how shortages lead to building numbers which then leads to surplus and more difficulty finding jobs possibly. It just seems that organizations could lobby accredidating bodies to somehow influence supply changes. After all this is America and you can pretty much lobby anything to influence everything if you have the people and the cash. If so, doing this could maybe stabilize the industry more attempting to equalize supply and demand. Instead it seems trouble arises resulting in a shortage or surplus that effects the profession as a whole whether positive or negative.

I challenge current SRNA's that may be interested in future leadership roles to ponder this issue. When our generation of CRNA's reache the peaks or later years of our careers this may become a major issue although I hope not. Preparing and brainstorming early can only benefit you and the profession.

Recently I saw predictions of future U.S. growth showing we are predicted to grow by about 25% over the next 30 or more years. We all know that as baby boomers get older of course the field will be very lucrative. I guess I just worry about what happens after that. Hopefully with this predicted 25% growth, which many will be immigrants the supply and demand will not suffer to drastic of changes driving down salaries and attractivness of employment opportunities. On another issue lets just hope medicaid/ medicare isn't totally busted and broken by then. There are a million things that can prob. effect all professions, guess you just have to do what you have to do to survive.

Good post though, anyone else have any words of wisdom, knowledge or experiences to share?

jwk · Jun 3, 2005

So if the staff nurse make $20 an hour on average the CRNA makes $40
40x 2080 hours=$83200 before taxes.
Is that a fare wage? I am curious.

That would probably be a low estimate for most anesthetists. The other post indicated the RN's made $20 LESS per hour than the CRNA's. So the other way to look at it would be that the CRNA's make about $41,600 more than a staff nurse. There are plenty of RN's making $50-60k (at least in my area) so if you add $40k on top of that, you're getting into the ballbark (the low end).

Nitecap · Jun 3, 2005

JWK,

Just curious. About what is the cost of AA school? I know CRNA school for me will cost around 40k. Is AA school about the same cost?

lmdscd · Jun 3, 2005

I was just trying to point out in this area the gap is closing, RNs start for new grad i'm told $ 45 up past 60+ for experience, crna start at$65+. I just wonder too how the demand will go . Just seems RNs jobs are in more control of what they get .

mwbeah · Jun 4, 2005

does anyone ever wonder what will happen when the market becomes flooded with crnas? will we see a drop in salaries?
from the aana.................................
[color=#008080]shortage of certified registered nurse anesthetists
limits access to healthcare
park ridge, ill. - a serious shortage of certified registered nurse anesthetists (crnas) has made an impact on the delivery of healthcare for a significant portion of the u.s. population, according to the american association of nurse anesthetists (aana).
the aana cited a decline in anesthesiology resident positions, an increase in office-based surgery and surgery in places other than hospitals as driving the increased need for crnas. additionally, with managed care continuing to pursue cost-cutting measures, coverage plans are recognizing crnas for providing high-quality anesthesia care with reduced expense to patients and insurance companies. the cost-efficiency of crnas helps keep escalating medical costs down.
according to aana's 1998 workforce survey, 35 percent of respondents cited an increase in the number of crna positions, compared with a 20 percent increase in 1997. forty-three percent of the nurse anesthetist managers reported open positions for crnas within their departments, ranging from one to 12 available jobs. fifty-nine percent of the respondents were actively recruiting crnas.
"we are in the midst of an acute crna shortage," said larry hornsby, crna, president of the 27,000 member aana. "the affects of this shortage are being felt in urban, rural and underserved areas. more nurse anesthesia programs and hospitals willing to serve as clinical sites would greatly increase our crna numbers."
the escalating numbers of healthcare procedures requiring anesthesia have increased the need for crnas. however, the demand for services currently exceeds the availability of these anesthesia providers. in recent years, an increase in the number of crnas who are retiring, combined with decreasing graduation rates from nurse anesthesia programs, has contributed to the overall decline in crna numbers. university professors have called for more anesthesia programs and clinical sites to be established in order to enroll more nursing students into the programs.
in 1990, the u.s. department of health and human services published findings indicating a national shortage of almost 5,400 nurse anesthetists. the study concluded that nurse anesthesia educational programs would need to produce between 1,500 and 1,800 graduates annually to meet societal nurse anesthesia demands by the year 2010. nevertheless, only about 1,000 nurse anesthesia students graduate annually.
crnas are anesthesia specialists who administer approximately 65 percent of the 26 million anesthetics given to patients each year in the united states. crnas are the sole anesthesia providers in nearly half of all hospitals and more than two-thirds of the rural hospitals in the united states, affording these medical facilities obstetrical, surgical, and trauma stabilization capabilities which cannot be achieved without crna anesthesia services.

mwbeah · Jun 4, 2005

where i live, the nurses only make about $20 or less per hour than the crna's and they don't have the responsibility of a crna. it is making some of the crna's angry because the nurses keep asking for raises and the crna's are not getting raises as often as the nurses if they get one at all.

the median expected salary for a typical certified nurse anesthetist in the united states is $121,958. this basic market pricing report was prepared using our certified compensation professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of hr departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.

certified nurse anesthetist 25th%ile median 75th%ile the united states $112,497 $121,958 $131,356

fyi,

mike

Tony35NYC · Jun 4, 2005

Its probably true that fewer MDs will specialize in anesthesia in days to come. It has to be obvious to them that in a healthcare industry thats increasingly cost conscious, their $400k+ salaries simply isn't sustainable. I've said this before, but I do believe its just a matter of time before the HMOs and Medicare/Medicaid slash the rates paid to MDAs. Even though the MDAs have much more overall clinical eduction than CRNAs, the actual service they're providing is no different than that provided by CRNAs---who earn far less. Not that any MDA in America has to worry about being unemployed anyway. When the MDAs realize that anesthesia practice isn't worth their while anymore they can simply transition to another specialty area of medicine and still make a lot more money than CRNAs ever will. This would simply be a return to the way things were before because it was nurses, not doctors, who were the first anesthesia service providers.

Too many CRNAs? I doubt it. I've heard this before, but I've never seen any research data or statistics to support it. Further:

1. Even though there are many CRNA schools, most of them have very limited enrollment so only a tiny few of people who apply get in.

2. CRNA programs are very challenging, and not everyone who gets a spot finishes the program.

3. There's no evidence that most registered nurses are even interested in becoming CRNAs.

Anesthesia is still and will always be a VERY high risk practice that carries expensive professional Liability Insurance. The rate that anesthesia practitioners earn has to be enough to cover that and other expenses. NPs don't have the same liability issues so I doubt the rates that anesthetists are paid will ever be the same that NPs make. I read an article on the AANA's website last year which stated, that over the next 10 to 15 years, more CRNAs will have retired than those entering the profession.

The following is a link to one of the studies I could find about the need for CRNAs. It is over a year old though. There were others but I can't recall the links at the moment.

http://www.canainc.org/news/2004archive/012104-workforce-growth.htm

jenniek · Jun 4, 2005

I am convinced that it must be quite an undertaking to start a NA program.

I think it is. I have friends who practice in a WI. The hospital they are employed at tried to get a program started, but met resistance from the MDAs and had trouble finding clinical sites. My husband was going to interview for jobs in that area, but luckily we found out the school was a no go before we were ready to move.

The program in Arkansas just graduated their first class, and is still adding clinical sites as the program progresses.

jwk · Jun 4, 2005

JWK,
Just curious. About what is the cost of AA school? I know CRNA school for me will cost around 40k. Is AA school about the same cost?

It's actually more in the neighborhood of $60k I think. All three of the current AA programs are at private universities, so the costs there are pretty high. I'm guessing that's not too far out of line with CRNA programs at private universities. The universities want their money for that graduate degree - whether it's AA, CRNA, biochem or English.

rn29306 · Jun 4, 2005

I was just trying to point out in this area the gap is closing, RNs start for new grad i'm told $ 45 up past 60+ for experience, crna start at$65+. I just wonder too how the demand will go . Just seems RNs jobs are in more control of what they get .

Averages are of little use at times..CRNAs - new grads are $110 and up. New grad from my school last year hit 200K this past year. Yes that involves working an insane amount of hours and alot of post-call days, but money is money when you have debt.

Your last statement is not true, at least in the South. Yes, RNs get a nice sign on bonus, but the benefits are often what the hospital states for everyone, including housekeeping. One reason that CRNA figures can be so misleading this that there are many different variables to consider and don't just look at the botom line.