For students that are undecided between RN/PA

[Peeps Mcarthur]

I wanted to let anyone that is considering PA vs NP or RN know that I have experienced a semester of nursing classes, and found that the curicculum did not match my expectations nor seem appropriate for later consideration of applicability to a PA program post BSN.

I don't want to blather on about a subject that I have been vocal about since I came to the board. This debate has been worked over and over on many threads, but never before with someone that had been through nursing classes, to my knowledge.

If there is an interest expressed, I will post away and answer questions for the people that wish to discuss the topic.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Kim,

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your post, so I will try to respond.

I entered nursing school on the strength of my previous observations of nurses and the work that they do. From my vantage point it appeared to be medicaly based. I thought it would be appropriate for someone interested in science based on what I assumed would be in the curicculum.

A course covering fundamentals would be the foundation of the rest of the training. Since I thought the fundamentals of nursing class was so different from what I had envisioned to be important and relevant to patient care, I imagine I would be dysfunctional in relating it to the rest of the course. I cannot validate the use of psychosocial relevance to everything. I just don't think that way. If the rest of the course has much in the way of science, it doesn't give it away in the course descriptions.............of any alternative schools that I've looked at as well.

My GPA would never survive it. I find that I dislike the common threads through the curicculum as to make it difficult to study. For me nursing is just a springboard into an empty pool!:chuckle

Some people that consider nursing school, do so with the expectation that they are seeking a higher degree and a position of autonomy and respect. Simply put, they want to diagnose and treat disease as a care provider. There are two clear paths to this end. NP is more nursing,psychosocial,sociological while PA is medical,biological,physiological,scientific.

I don't think I'm the only one with that realization. Sometimes it takes a little discussion for someone to look at the issue introspectively. It took me 3 years to reach this point, but only one semester of the foundations of the profession to make it crystal clear. If I can share what I've learned and help put a lost soul on the right path, then I will not have done it in vain.

[DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE, MSN, RN]

NP is more nursing,psychosocial,sociological while PA is medical,biological,physiological,scientific.

Where do you get your information??? I would like to see documentation of such. Of course a NP has more nursing they are hand on Advanced Nursing Care. A NP can stand on thier own licenses where as a PA can not. They are cosigned by a Dr. Where NPs' are not. Yes there are differences in the ways inwhich the instructions are exchanged but the NP has more training by multiple years than a PA even with a MA. The course inwhich I told you about that is out of the University of North Dakota is based on 16 weeks of intense classroom and the rest of the time in clinicals. If you think that the NP program is anything like that think again.

Since I thought the fundamentals of nursing class was so different from what I had envisioned to be important and relevant to patient care, I imagine I would be dysfunctional in relating it to the rest of the course. I cannot validate the use of psychosocial relevance to everything. I just don't think that way. If the rest of the course has much in the way of science, it doesn't give it away in the course descriptions.......

How clear were your thoughts and your visions when you entered school? If the basics of Nursing is something you find unimportant than you have come to the realization that nursing is not for you. If you can not validate the psychosocials to everything you do then why is it that you feel Medicine in any shape and form is your nitch in life? If you feel Nursing isnt for you then why would you find it necessary to discourage others , that may or maynot wish this for themselves? If you do feel that you belong into another aspect of the medical agenda then explore your options and go for them.

For ever action there is a reaction

Basic chemistry Basic Life.

Just my thoughts

Zoe

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Zoe,

I'm not trying to discourage anybody from nursing. I'm trying to encourage those people that are not sure.

A few quickies:

NPs must get signed-off by an MD. They do not perform independently of the physician.

I know of no RN programs that require organic chem or calculus. I do know of a BSN program that requires a semester of organic chem though. I however do not know of any PA programs that do not require these as minnimum standards.

I wonder if the PA program you are referring to is even accredited. It has been pointed out that nursing and medicine are not the same. Why would you be allowed to clep into a program of medicine?

the NP has more training by multiple years than a PA even with a MA

Yes, but not in the medical model. The two are philisophicaly opposed. Even though a nursing degree is used as a prerequisite there is no medical model from which to draw from.

Therefore..........invalid.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

I mean invalid to medical diagnosis and treatment. Certainly not invalid as a profession.

Is that what you thought I was saying?

[DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE, MSN, RN]

http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/pa/

that is a ma pac program for rn.

the explanations of a pa

http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/pa/

the role of a nurse practitioner- bonnie huss, arnp

the role of a nurse practitioner- bonnie huss, arnp

bonnie huss, arnp

what is a nurse practitioner?

a nurse practitioner is a registered nurse with additional specialized training (often at a graduate level) in diagnosing and treating illnesses and providing health care maintenance. the nurse practitioner provides some care previously offered only by physicians. education for nurse practitioners includes advanced nursing and selected medical studies as well as intensive clinical experience specific to the nurse practitioners area of practice. the nurse practitioner could specialize in any of the following areas of nursing such as: neonatal, pediatrics, women's health, family practice, geriatrics, and acute care. there are approximately 50,000 nurse practitioner in the united states today.

where do nurse practitioners work?

nurse practitioners work in all fifty states and washington, dc, in many health care settings. they can work independently in their own health care offices or in collaboration with physicians; they also work in clinics, hospitals, outpatient facilities, nursing homes, schools, businesses, correctional facilities, or in home health care agencies.

what is the difference between a nurse practitioner and an physician's assistance?

while nurse practitioner and physician assistants may function very similarly and may, in some states be interchangeable in terms of job description, there are differences between the two in legal definition, scope of practice, licensure, and independence of practice. physician assistants practice medicine under the license of a physician, never independently. nurse practitioners may be physician extenders or practice independently, depending upon state law.

who regulates the nurse practitioner practice?

nurse practitioners practice under rules and regulations developed by state boards of nursing. in addition, nurse practitioners maybe nationally certified. most nurse practitioners have authority to prescribe medications.

how does a nurse practitioner's care compare to a physician's care?

nurse practitioners care for basically everyone with typical health care needs. they focus on well being and preventing health problems. physicians are trained to treat complete health problems that may require complicated treatment or surgery, the high quality of care provided by nurse practitioners is well known. consumer and government studies have shown that nurse practitioners are skilled clinicians and patient educators. also nurse practitioner's sensitivity to the patient's needs and their ability to decrease the mystery surrounding health care.when would i see a nurse practitioner?

nurse practitioners are qualified to provide you with many health services including the treatment of minor illnesses- and will refer you to a physician if a serious problem is discovered. the nurse practitioner is prepared to deliver a full range of health care services including:

diagnosis and treatment of acute and choric health care problems

health promotion and disease prevention

care for women, children, men, and senior citizens

diagnosis and management of minor trauma including suturing and splinting

case management

conducts physical examination of individuals

orders, performs, and interprets laboratory tests for screening and for diagnosing

prescribes medications

consults with other health care providers about established clients who have been admitted to hospital, home care, rehabilitation, or nursing homes

nurse practitioners take time to answer your questions and address your concerns. if you want a highly qualified professional to pay attention to your health needs, see a nurse practitioner.

bonnie huss received her masters in nursing at fort hays state university. she is a family nurse practitioner certified by the american nursing credentialing center. she joined the staff at share medical center in august of 2000. she and her husband, harold, have two children, jamie and skyler. they attend the catholic church in st. leo, kansas.

this should help with any confusion one might have

just my thoughts

zoe

ps if you would like to see the page inwhich this was taken from

http://www.smcok.com/media/newspaper/archives/role_of_nurse_practioner.htm

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Zoe,

That PA program you're refering to is an on-line, precepted course. That's not typical.

The prerequisites don't mention GPA requirements specificly or course content of previous credits, just that it must be a 4-year BSN.

This program stresses that you must have a physician vouch for you, and promise that they will precept you.

If you are in this program,please don't be offended personaly, but I think it's not mainstream compared to what I've seen. It says that a graduate can sit for PA boards, but it offers no accreditation statement.

Did I miss it?

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Taken from the Maryland Board of Nursing website

B. Before a nurse practitioner may practice he shall:

(1) Obtain certification under these regulations;

(2) Enter into a written agreement with a physician whereby the physician on a regularly-scheduled basis shall:

Read:supervise

(a) Accept referrals,

(b) Establish and review drug and other medical guidelines with the nurse practitioner,

© Participate with the nurse practitioner in periodically reviewing and discussing medical diagnoses and the therapeutic or corrective measures employed in the practice setting,

(d) Jointly sign records if needed to document accountability of both the physician and nurse practitioner,

(e) Be available for consultation in person, by telephone, or by some other form of telecommunication, and

(f) Designate an alternate physician if the physician identified in the written agreement temporarily becomes unavailable;

(3) Obtain approval of the written agreement as set forth in Regulation .06.

C. A nurse practitioner may practice only in the area of specialization in which he is certified.

{end quote}

Looks somewhat more restrictive than the guidelines you were looking at Zoe.

[kimtab]

quote:

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NP is more nursing,psychosocial,sociological while PA is medical,biological,physiological,scientific.

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I understand that what you are looking for is geared more toward diagnosis and treatment of specific disease. You obviously belong in medical school. You are absolutely right- nursing schools are not in the business of preparing people who may want to be doctors in the future, which is not to say it can't be one way that determined people with limited resources take to get there. If you are trying to warn those few that are in that category they may appreciate it I suppose. I find it hard to believe there are as many as you think who have the same expectations that you do becuase, as you have discovered, it's a different mindset.

However, diseases do have people behind them. It is very difficult for me to see why you don't consider psychosocial aspects of illness to be a fundamental of patient care in any setting. As a PA you will not be eliminating the sociological and psychological aspects of dealing with ill people. Whether or not you will have more autonomy and respect I'll leave it to someone else to argue.

That being said, I do understand how you could find it boring and hard to take. I can't say that I never fell asleep in lecture last semester. You haven't said which direction you are going to take now. How did you decide to proceed?

Kim

[DIPLOMATICRN4HIRE, MSN, RN]

The accrediation is when you sit for the boards one cannot practice unless one has passed the boards and recieved a PAC (which started in 2002)(All courses had to be certified unless already enrolled in the program prior to this date)which is a Physicans Assistant Certified. The MA is to the degree of the Certifications. ie" PAC MA which is how it is signed if the PA is wishing to state their qualifications most just sign PAC. Others that are not Certified which there are some still around sign PA, because they are of BSN qualifications.(The online portions of the classes are classes that the BS Nurse can clept)

It is at the top of the page.

And if you do not know this when and if you do go for the PA program if that is what you wish to do you will also as a Student have a Dr agree that you will precept with them under thier license. They are held accountable for you and your actions while you are doing your clinicals.

No I am not in this program and yes I have considered it but since PA's can not work independently(yes they can work in the office by themselves but the DR co-signs all thier actions) as a Nurse Practioner can I have decided that I will use My Masters Degree to contiue in that area of care.

A few quickies:

NPs must get signed-off by an MD. They do not perform independently of the physician

Just in case you missed it:

While Nurse Practitioner and Physician Assistants may function very similarly and may, in some states be interchangeable in terms of job description, there are differences between the two in legal definition, scope of practice, licensure, and independence of practice. Physician Assistants practice medicine under the license of a physician, never independently. Nurse practitioners may be physician extenders or practice independently, depending upon state law.

Your GPA is evaluated by the University itself and thier Medical Instructors, not everyone that applies gets in : They take approximately 20 students at a time and have a Passage rate of 98% in the State Boards.

Just my thoughts

Zoe

[EmeraldNYL, BSN, RN]

Wow, this is getting heated! I have to agree with Zoe on this one, because I did a lot of soul-searching and almost went to a PA program but ended up deciding on a 2nd-degree BSN. Alot of other people in my nursing program were also considering PA programs but changed their mind and went to nursing school. The reason is that nurses receive broader training and have more options available to them. Here in Philly, I know of several places that will ONLY hire NPs, and will refuse to hire PAs. And yes, NPs CAN practice independently because they are on their own license while a PA HAS to work under the Dr's license. Also, IMHO, many patients are more familiar with the NP role as opposed to the PA role. When I told several people that I was considering Physician assistant school, they thought I meant MEDICAL assistant, and they really had no clue what a PA was (but they did know what an NP was). Peeps, I really don't get why you hate this psychosocial stuff so much. Yes, I dislike nursing diagnoses and I feel that the pathophysiology is more important, but the psychology is also important. As I have said before, wellness is more than just the absence of disease. It sounds like you are saying that psychology is not a valid field of study and in this case there would be no need for social workers, psychiatrists, and other mental health workers because psychosocial health is not important?! If you really want to study ONLY science, do research and get out of the health care field all together. I would not want to go to either a PA or an NP that didn't give a hoot about my mental/psychosocial health as well as my physical health.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Kim,

I'm going to get a degree in biology with a stress in anatomy & physiology. The psychology that I've taken for nursing classes fulfill those of the PA programs. Sadly, all my 7 credits of nursing do is drag my transfer GPA down, I got a "B".......the shame, but it gave me great insight(more than I wanted really:) ) into the psychosocial aspect. I am done with psychology now.

My degree in biology will fufill all requirements for admission to a PA program of my choice. No more careplanning, bedbaths, or those ugggggly uniforms:chuckle

It's important to note that I'm not ready to dispense with the psychosocial aspect altogether. I have alot to learn in regards to the human animal. It just won't be the center of my universe.

[Peeps Mcarthur]

Zoe,

Your quote about NP scope of practice is from an article a nurse wrote, not from the BON.

I encourage anyone looking at the program Zoe has posted and thinking it is typical of PA programs, to look at some other PA school requirements and compare them to this program.

It's a masters in PA studies, but awards a certificate?

I thought they were separate.