Entry all RN's be BSN's

[nursebrandie28]

:smilecoffeecup: hey fellow nurses...

i am in my masters of nursing education program and one of the assignments is to write about the pro's and con's of entry level rn education. there is (and has been) talk about making a bsn a requirement to sit for boards and making lpns an associate degree. north dakota made this a state law in 1986 and it was over rided in 1992.

as a lpn instructor, we rush all these classes in 11 months and all the students are so overwhelmed, that maybe expanding the program will be better

as a con, will people still go into nursing if it took 4 years to become a rn and 2 years for lpn? how will it affect the nursing shortage?

any inputs. i remain neutral on the topic, i can see both sides of the fence. i myself obtained my asn, then my bsn and now obtaining my masters.....

and one last question, has any hospitals been pushing for rns to obtain bsns, i know in st louis at barnes jewish hospitals (the largest hospital in the area) they are pushing all rn's to go back to school!!! anybody else encounter this?

thanks in advance for your postings!!

[nurse4theplanet, RN]

I am an ADN student - hopefully I will graduate in May (Ugh!)

I recently quit my full time job (in an unrelated field) and acquired a part-time position in a hospital for the experience. It is already paying off!

I plan on continuing my education. I was going to go for my BSN, but was recently advised to just go straight for the MSN. How does everyone else feel about that? I was told that it was worth the little extra effort! I know that everyone else is in the same boat as I - overworked and underpaid - and very tired.

Any support or responses greatly appreciated. Strength to all!

I am an ADN graduate and also know I want to continue my education beyond BSN. I looked into a few RN-MSN programs and I decided that my best option was to pursue a BSN degree and then go for my master's later. My reasons being:

1. I am a brand new nurse with no experience and my MSN degree would be pretty much useless until I gain experience. Secondly, if I were to get my MSN and have at the bedside to gain experience before utilizing my degree, the information I learned in the program would not be as fresh.

2. When pursuing a BSN you don't have to choose a specialty that will limit you in your career path. With an MSN degree, some options limit you into performing in just that role...and I am not entirely sure what option will be best for me at this time in my life. The functions of a Family Nurse Practicioner, CRNA, Nurse Educator, etc. are all very different. If I am going to invest a large amount of money and time into continuing my education, then I want to be sure that I explore all my options and do not limit myself or make a decision that I regret.

3. I believe that there is much to be gained through bedside nursing experience that increases your competence as an Advanced practice nurse. There are many things that can only be learned through experience. There are some members who will disagree with me and I respect their opinion...no need to start a debate.

Those were MY reasons. However, if you feel that your time and money are better spent pursuing your Master's and you already are confident you know exactly which route to choose then do so. It's up to you.

[OldPhatMC]

I think I belong here:specs: I've two dachshunds, a poodle, and a malti-poo.. all rescues.

I also have a BA and an MS in unrelated disciplines and I'm working diligently in an ADN program. I'm also working full time, so it's a hat-trick. Why I feel that I can address this issue is based on the long struggle to get into a nursing program of any type. I'm pushing 50 (thirteen day more or less to go). I've also taught electronics in degree programs and vocationally. Amazingly enough there are parallels that we, as nurses, can appreciate.

But first, let me show a little hardness of nose. I remember back in .. 1991 or so... when there was a strong push to make the nursing entry level degree a BSN. There were ads on the radio that, frankly, I found offensive. I'm sure to be inexact, but the message was "If caring were all it took to be a nurse, anyone could be one."

Those ads took the one trait that truly makes a nurse a nurse and made it unimportant. My grandmother was a nurse. I knew that caring was a huge part of the job. Might as well be an engineer as a nurse otherwise.

Professional nursing is a very complex job. Yes, a BS degree is desirable, but the essential skills, attitudes, and behaviors are taught in the ADN programs. Look at most of the RN to BSN programs. There are about six courses that are pure nursing in most programs (Drexel's a good example). There are science requirements that make a lot of sense (real anatomy and physiology instead of NursingScienceMashup 101), and being educated has been pretty cool once in a while if I do say so myself.

Now back to 1991: I remember that being the start of the drive toward the elimination of diploma nursing programs and a whole bunch of "upgrade" the ADN program fever. So in the middle of a shortage, we make fewer nursing education opportunities available. Brilliant!-NOT. (By the way, this thinking is entering the EMS profession, so in the middle of an acute paramedic shortage, we're going to make them all get a BA).

Now that we've figured out that the profession needs people, we're seeing new and novel ways to get nurses educated. I'm on an on-line hybrid program (don't be afraid, I get full clinical experience, including wearing white uniforms and changing briefs in nursing homes). I could not have become a nurse otherwise without selling my house, leaving my dachshunds homeless, and living in a refrigerator box.

Now the idea of an LPN with an Associates degree is not a bad idea, and here's where I come back to my vocational education roots. Vocational-technical schools produced technicians that had a practical level of knowledge. They got science and math at a more general level, and students that were late bloomers, or had a problem with learning a lot of stuff all at once could become technicians in electronics, or HVAC or any of a number of disciplines where they had a tilt toward routine tasks mixed with troubleshooting and problem solving. They weren't expected to be solo practitioners, and they got a more basic and mostly hands-on learning experience.

Today's automobiles, air conditioners, and even water heaters are run with computers. The simple jobs are simpler, but there's more complexity. Most technicians in auto repair are now getting an associates degree because they're in school two years. They're not considered pre-engineers and its not normally expected that they're going back to school. Is it possible for a practical nurse (LPN/LVN) to be happy at that level? I think so. Would it be better to get the training and education done at a more comfortable pace. I believe so. It doesn't mean that an ADN RN would get less education, but an ADLPN would get better preparation for a more complex world.

The big difference between the ADLPN and ADRN would be scope of practice. Also an AD RN would be seen as being on a path to the BSN and beyond. The AD LPN most likely would have an easier time bridging to the ADRN than our current LPN to RN programs. I don't see any damage to anyone from being in school more.

The problem is that the LPN can work in a year. Adding a year to that would cause shortages over the near term. Perhaps the ADLPN programs would be a place for EMT-Intermediates and Paramedics to bridge into nursing very quickly. This would give them a career path they need since EMS professionals can only go so far in the Fire Service before they have to leave EMS for line firefighting. The Intermediate/Paramedic could bridge in a year or less. Just a thought and not core to the idea.

Okay, I've talked way too much. Sorry :-|

OldPhatMC

ADNS

[GIRN]

You've made some interesting points, OldPhatMC. That's a good correlation about the technicians that would just do the technical end of the job and would never be solo practitioners. If that would be the ADLPN, are you saying that they would be able to do all that RN's can do now? (I've never really understood the big difference between the skill level of an RN versus a LPN, anyway. A LPN doesn't do a few things that an RN does, but she is certainly capable!) If the pay scale for a ADLPN would then reflect what RN's make now, I agree this would be a good way to go. Then, the BSN's could start out at a higher rate. You could work your way up through the levels or start as a BSN.

I have a question for anyone out there. Why is it that for a lot of certifications in nursing, before you can take the test, you need to have worked in that field for a minimum amount of time. IE: Before you can sit for the Society of Gastrointestinal Nursing Association Exam, you must have worked in that area full-time for a minimum of two years. Yet, to get your MSN you don't have to have worked at all in that nursing area! You don't need any practical experience, other than school practicals, before you can become licensed. That's never made sense to me.

[cd_y]

The VA medical center won't promote you unless you have your BSN. The evidence supports that the higher the education, the better the patient outcomes. As an LVN, I couldn't disagree more on a very individual basis. I think the evidence fails to support my claim.

[cisco]

I was a single mother when I decided to go for a nursing degree. I was thrilled when I found out about the ADN program, because I knew that I could get it done in a little over 2 years. ( I took A&P and chemistry prior) I needed something that I could support myself and my son asap. Also, the ADN degree didn't hinder me from getting into managing a 34 bed med/surg unit in a major teaching medical center or becoming a liaison/consultant for a state government department. The professionalism, ability and knowledge of the nurse doesn't lie in the degree, it lies in the abilities of the individual nurse themselves.

[jjjoy, LPN]

OldPhatMC - I see what you're getting at with the suggestions on ADLPN. I think about that kind of stuff, too. How to make it all work!! I'd love to toss ideas around with you. Would you like to PM me about it?