DOCTORATE for CRNA's?

yoga crna · Feb 23, 2005

in all 50 states this is the criteria:
a certified registered nurse anesthetist (crna), as defined in 410.69(b) of this chapter, who, unless exempted in accordance with paragrpah © of this section, is under the supervision of the operating practitioner or an anesthesiologist who is immediately available if needed
when crnas provide anesthesia, this is the requirement. you can see that having an anesthesiologist does not always happen (and this is for all 50 states)
mike

mike

you are mistaken. there are many states that permit crnas independent practice. check the aana website. we need to get our own facts correct.

yoga

sonessrna · Feb 23, 2005

It depends upon what your objectives are.
A PhD is universal. If you are planning on doing some teaching or participating on lecturing, somehow I think a PhD would be best. There are just plenty of opportunities out there, first you have ask yourself the reason you want a doctorate and the choice to make should come easily. Let's wait for further input on this one.

Of course this can't be that simple!! :) I want to do a variety of things with my PhD. I want to teach anesthesia, but I also want to use the PhD for something involved with anesthesia. I would like to do something with policy making, managing, etc in aneshtesia. I guess I just answered my own question didn't I? Management with an emphasis on anesthesia management. Would that be good for teaching though?

air · Feb 23, 2005

Of course this can't be that simple!! :) I want to do a variety of things with my PhD. I want to teach anesthesia, but I also want to use the PhD for something involved with anesthesia. I would like to do something with policy making, managing, etc in aneshtesia. I guess I just answered my own question didn't I? Management with an emphasis on anesthesia management. Would that be good for teaching though?

I am now about to travel beyond my depth. Do you want to manage patient anesthesia as in as on approach or do you want to manage an anesthesia dept. I PhD would still come out well. I am not really sure about those nuances in the differences but I think a PhD is just a better doctorate to have. You are prepared and recognized for your research training. you can write for your own grants. If you want to be a university faculty, fine, you do not have to worry about job security, they would not be redefining your doctorate. You want to manage a dept, so be it, if you can manage complex patient units or the floor, then you would have to wear that "human Factor" again, it would come back to you.

mwbeah · Feb 24, 2005

Mike
You are mistaken. There are many states that permit CRNAs independent practice. Check the AANA website. We need to get our own facts correct.
Yoga

I totally understand the opt out policy and the 12 states which did opt out of physician supervision, I was only contradicting the statement made by the person "posing" as a CRNA. Did you read his post? Did that sound like he knew what he was talking about? My facts couldn't be straighter, I was showing him (directly from the ASA website) that MDAs aren't required to present "present for intubation", that was just a wrong statement.

Mike

mwbeah · Feb 24, 2005

You don't think I know what it is to be independent, try performing anesthesia by yourself with a drawover and a ploss valve in a sand pit in Iraq and then criticize me.

Mike

yoga crna · Feb 24, 2005

Mike,

I did not read the previous post and apologize for responding to your comments without the total picture.

That being said, it is important to understand that opt-out is a Medicare reimbursement issue and has nothing to do with state licensure laws. My practice is in a state where the nurse anesthetist section of the nurse practice act does not mention or allude to the word "supervision". That is the law under which I practice. Medicare "supervison" requirements are totally different and we must be careful not to confuse the two issues.

By the way, I have first hand experience and information on this topic; I was the head of the negotiating team representing our profession when the Medicare reimbursement law was being implemented. Although much as happened with the rules and regulations in more recent years, MEDICARE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT REIMBURSEMENT AND NOT ABOUT STANDARDS OF PRACTICE.

Yoga CRNA

mwbeah · Feb 24, 2005

Thanks Yoga,

The reason I was upset was what the content of the previous poster was, I researched his previous posts and found out that he was talking about something he knew nothing about. He was trying to present himself as a CRNA when he was not.

Thanks,

Mike

yoga crna · Feb 24, 2005

Mike,

I am sure you feel like I do--I have had it with people who try to define us or our practice. There is so much misinformation out there and it continues to escalate. In my small way I try to present the facts, but it is so hard when someone hears what they want to hear.

All of you new grads need to get politically active with the AANA and your state associations. If you want to have a future in this great profession, be prepared for the battles, contribute to the various funds and get involved.

Mike, I for one want to thank you for your military anesthesia. I am proud to be a member of the same profession of all of you military CRNAs. Everyone needs to know how difficult your work has been and how much respect you deserve.

Yoga

saintlouis · Feb 24, 2005

Why don't ya'll point your guns at those without "RN" anywhere in their name- PA's and AA's- rather than each other?

After reading the statement, seems to me the intention is to get all advance practice nurses a bit more respect by allowing the social title of "doctor" to be used.... all in all, not a bad concept, huh?

Seems like the real folks with a beef should be the NP's- let's see, I'd like to spend a ton of clinical and class time, only to make a small percentage more than a ADN, and hear folks say "I want to see the REAL doctor..."

CRNA's may not get the respect they deserve, but I'd be willing to hear anyone argue they are not fairly compensated for their efforts. According to the national averages, CRNA's make (on average) a fair bit more than your average Primary Care Medical Doctor.

If it takes a change on the diploma to get advance practice nurses the respect deserving of years of education and (more importantly) clinical experience, along with fair compensation deserved, I'm all for it.

And that goes for ALL with ANY form of "RN" after their name. I'm just a lowly ADN student (with goals for Advanced Practice), but it still amazes me that when I pass the NCLEX and get handed a key to the cabinet full of things that can kill people, I will take a cut in pay from my current (18 years!) job as a well-respected (ha!) HAIRDRESSER.

There is something horribly wrong with a system that pays people less who provide lifesaving care than those who spend the day teasing hair and increasing the hole in the ozone layer. Mind you, this is in no way an argument that hairdressers should make less money....

What it comes down to is that none of us will make the money we deserve until we stand up TOGETHER and say STOP IT!!! to the pencil-pushing weasels who write the checks. If it takes a change to the diploma's awarded, I'm all for it. It should have happened sooner....

It's not about how many classes you've had in Invertibrate Zoology you've had, it's about respect.

flame away, I like a nice, warm room!

alansmith52 · Feb 24, 2005

you mean stand up to the medical mofia in washington.. tommy thompson.

Why don't ya'll point your guns at those without "RN" anywhere in their name- PA's and AA's- rather than each other?
After reading the statement, seems to me the intention is to get all advance practice nurses a bit more respect by allowing the social title of "doctor" to be used.... all in all, not a bad concept, huh?
Seems like the real folks with a beef should be the NP's- let's see, I'd like to spend a ton of clinical and class time, only to make a small percentage more than a ADN, and hear folks say "I want to see the REAL doctor..."
CRNA's may not get the respect they deserve, but I'd be willing to hear anyone argue they are not fairly compensated for their efforts. According to the national averages, CRNA's make (on average) a fair bit more than your average Primary Care Medical Doctor.
If it takes a change on the diploma to get advance practice nurses the respect deserving of years of education and (more importantly) clinical experience, along with fair compensation deserved, I'm all for it.
And that goes for ALL with ANY form of "RN" after their name. I'm just a lowly ADN student (with goals for Advanced Practice), but it still amazes me that when I pass the NCLEX and get handed a key to the cabinet full of things that can kill people, I will take a cut in pay from my current (18 years!) job as a well-respected (ha!) HAIRDRESSER.
There is something horribly wrong with a system that pays people less who provide lifesaving care than those who spend the day teasing hair and increasing the hole in the ozone layer. Mind you, this is in no way an argument that hairdressers should make less money....
What it comes down to is that none of us will make the money we deserve until we stand up TOGETHER and say STOP IT!!! to the pencil-pushing weasels who write the checks. If it takes a change to the diploma's awarded, I'm all for it. It should have happened sooner....
It's not about how many classes you've had in Invertibrate Zoology you've had, it's about respect.
flame away, I like a nice, warm room!

NGACRNA · Feb 28, 2005

Okay, hypothetical situation:

Person "J" wants to be a CRNA. They learn about our profession in high school, and they like the thought of actually DOING anesthesia (you know, personally administering the anesthetic...)

They know they have to have a BS and be an RN. Unfortunately, the AACN has been pushing for BSN degress to become FIVE (5) year degrees.

Then they get their two years of ICU experience.

Then they get into one of the (currently planned/outlined) DNP CRNA programs which is (being optimistic) FOUR (4) years long.

Hmmm, eleven years of education/experience...could've been an orthopod or something...

But wait! There's more!

CRNA "D" wants to get a DNP because their state licensing board says they have to have one in 2015 (worst case, non-grandfathered scenario). They look at the options and see things like 33-56 hours of post-master's work.

THAT'S THREE (3) years!!!!!! What is wrong with this picture????

And they get to introduce themselves to patients saying: "Hi, I'm 'doctor' D, your nurse anesthetist". Talk about confusing the issue. It's bad enough most of my patients call me "doc", because they don't know better (and for my physician colleagues, I do correct them; I tell them I'm not a doctor, I work for a living [they love that one, so do the surgeons]).

And lastly, why don't we just get credit for the hours we take in CRNA schools already. My degree was a master's level because they wouldn't honestly add in the number of clinical hours I completed. Otherwise, it would've broke the 110 hour mark.

jwk · Feb 28, 2005

Why don't ya'll point your guns at those without "RN" anywhere in their name- PA's and AA's- rather than each other?

Now why would you want to go and do that?

Hmmm, eleven years of education/experience...could've been an orthopod or something...

Gee, in 6 years, could've been an............nah.:chuckle