DOCTORATE for CRNA's?

91CRN · Mar 27, 2006

In canada the entry level for RNs is a 4 year science degree. There are no ADNs no diplomas and in order to be a doctorate you must have a masters first.
Ive read the AA deal jwk. Why do you come here exactly since all you will probably see is hostility? While im a generally nice person, politically, i totally against AAs and how they cheapen the profession. Sorry, its true and a long held opinion.
Oh, before your silly enough to quote off the stuff from your web site, Dont, ive read the propoganda machine. Oh, dont bother quoting the "we take ochem crap" i took it. I was pre med before deciding to go CRNA route. BTW Ochem is useless in anesthesia care, ask any MDA.
Ok, there. Ive set the conversation back to anti AA
No offence jwk just being a pot stirrer ;P

I thought the conversation was about CRNAs requiring doctorate degrees!!! On your assertion that O-chem isn't that useful in the practice of anesthesia--FINE, I don't even practice yet, I'm still jumping thru all the hoops to get into a program; a lot of programs want o-chem, bio-chem, physics--sound familiar,'''''''' yes it does--pre med. I should add that many medical schools are wising up and actually accepting applicants with more of a liberal arts background!! Like I said, I just want to provide anesthesia, I didn't make these things true and if I could change them I would. BTW I am a less than BSN--RN(will be for another 2 semesters), and you can bet your '''''' when the'''''' hits it, my colleagues would rather have me around than the CNS or any other ''''''''poser running around our hospital!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree that a BSN should be entry level--BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU DO!!!!

OH YES, JUST STIRRING THE POT.

MmacFN · Mar 27, 2006

First let me say i have no idea what your ranting about.

Now on to the comments.

I thought the conversation was about CRNAs requiring doctorate degrees!!! On your assertion that O-chem isn't that useful in the practice of anesthesia--FINE, I don't even practice yet, I'm still jumping thru all the hoops to get into a program; a lot of programs want o-chem, bio-chem, physics--sound familiar,'''''''' yes it does--pre med.

I did all the pre med pre reqs. However, i still dont know what your talking about?

Like I said, I just want to provide anesthesia, I didn't make these things true and if I could change them I would. BTW I am a less than BSN--RN(will be for another 2 semesters),

Again, what are you ranting about exactly? My comments were directed at an AA not you.

and you can bet your '''''' when the'''''' hits it, my colleagues would rather have me around than the CNS or any other ''''''''poser running around our hospital!

Uh huh. Again, totally confused about what your talking about. However, let me assure you im not a CNS im a flight RN with all ICU and ER/Trauma background. So, again, whats your point?I agree that a BSN should be entry level--BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU DO!!!!

OH YES, JUST STIRRING THE POT.

Wow. Again, you make no sense or any points, it seems. Since i didnt say why i thought it should be entry level im not sure you know why i think it should. You need to clarify whatever it is your saying because it simply looks like rambling.

91CRN · Mar 28, 2006

First let me say i have no idea what your ranting about.
Now on to the comments.
I thought the conversation was about CRNAs requiring doctorate degrees!!! On your assertion that O-chem isn't that useful in the practice of anesthesia--FINE, I don't even practice yet, I'm still jumping thru all the hoops to get into a program; a lot of programs want o-chem, bio-chem, physics--sound familiar,'''''''' yes it does--pre med.
I did all the pre med pre reqs. However, i still dont know what your talking about?
Like I said, I just want to provide anesthesia, I didn't make these things true and if I could change them I would. BTW I am a less than BSN--RN(will be for another 2 semesters),
Again, what are you ranting about exactly? My comments were directed at an AA not you.
and you can bet your '''''' when the'''''' hits it, my colleagues would rather have me around than the CNS or any other ''''''''poser running around our hospital!

Uh huh. Again, totally confused about what your talking about. However, let me assure you im not a CNS im a flight RN with all ICU and ER/Trauma background. So, again, whats your point?I agree that a BSN should be entry level--BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU DO!!!!
OH YES, JUST STIRRING THE POT.
Wow. Again, you make no sense or any points, it seems. Since i didnt say why i thought it should be entry level im not sure you know why i think it should. You need to clarify whatever it is your saying because it simply looks like rambling.

Hey--no fair. This is an on-line forum. I wasn't writing a paper/essay. You JUST SOUND MEAN. To be more to the point--as if the first sentence of my last posting didn't say it all---This is a thread about the fact that CRNA's may, in the near-future be required to have a doctorate. NOT about entry levels of education for RN licensure. The rest of my post was me reacting to you--so I won't bother to explain it to you as it wasn't important. I know you aren't a CNS--I wasn't writing about you!:angryfire

lindarn · Mar 28, 2006

Hey--no fair. This is an on-line forum. I wasn't writing a paper/essay. You JUST SOUND MEAN. To be more to the point--as if the first sentence of my last posting didn't say it all---This is a thread about the fact that CRNA's may, in the near-future be required to have a doctorate. NOT about entry levels of education for RN licensure. The rest of my post was me reacting to you--so I won't bother to explain it to you as it wasn't important. I know you aren't a CNS--I wasn't writing about you!:angryfire

I am not a CRNA, nor do I desire to be one. With that said, I admit that I have not read through all of the threads on this subject. Seeing that PHYSICAL THERAPISTS now have a DOCTORATE as entry into practice, do you really think, that a career that has a patients life in their hands during surgery, should have an educational preparation less than a PT?. A Doctorate to be really not much more than a glorified exercise tech, like the ones in your health club? (I have a minor in physical education and had many pre PT majors in my classes. So I can comment on their educational preparation- it is not different from the PE majors). I think that all advanced practice nurses should have a doctorate. JMHO. And my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN ,CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Pete495 · Mar 28, 2006

Actually, you will find that there are a lot of others on this board who are not even RN's, that still participate. We welcome their participation because it is afterall an open forum.

You will also find that most good anesthesia practitioners put their political feelings aside, whether they're working with CRNA's, RN's, anesthesia tech's, MDA's, whoever all for the team approach to make the best possible anesthesia experience for their patient. I think you went a little far to say that AA's cheapen the profession. JWK freely ascertains that he does not intend to practice independently. Do I agree that they stir the political pot. yes, but so do MDA's and CRNA's. most of the veterans on this board are tired of debating the same stupid conversations that get us no where, like independent pratice for all. If aa's cheapen the profession, then crna's must do the same thing for mda's, or is it vice versa? who really cares is my opinion. We all have the same goal in mind.

In canada the entry level for RNs is a 4 year science degree. There are no ADNs no diplomas and in order to be a doctorate you must have a masters first.
Ive read the AA deal jwk. Why do you come here exactly since all you will probably see is hostility? While im a generally nice person, politically, i totally against AAs and how they cheapen the profession. Sorry, its true and a long held opinion.
Oh, before your silly enough to quote off the stuff from your web site, Dont, ive read the propoganda machine. Oh, dont bother quoting the "we take ochem crap" i took it. I was pre med before deciding to go CRNA route. BTW Ochem is useless in anesthesia care, ask any MDA.
Ok, there. Ive set the conversation back to anti AA
No offence jwk just being a pot stirrer ;P

MmacFN · Mar 28, 2006

Cant argue with that logic.

I guess the question is: How will it effect current CRNAs, future CRNAs and time/money in relation to entrance into the advanced practice of CRNAs.

While i totally agree with you, i dont see Physicial therapists suffering from a shortage. While this has nothing to do with education, it does have some political ramifications for us. A hospital cannot run without nurses, but thats not true of PTs OTs and the like.

I dont have any real answers, just pointing out the issues

I am not a CRNA, nor do I desire to be one. With that said, I admit that I have not read through all of the threads on this subject. Seeing that PHYSICAL THERAPISTS now have a DOCTORATE as entry into practice, do you really think, that a career that has a patients life in their hands during surgery, should have an educational preparation less than a PT?. A Doctorate to be really not much more than a glorified exercise tech, like the ones in your health club? (I have a minor in physical education and had many pre PT majors in my classes. So I can comment on their educational preparation- it is not different from the PE majors). I think that all advanced practice nurses should have a doctorate. JMHO. And my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN ,CCRN
Spokane, Washington

Focker, CRNA · Mar 28, 2006

I am not a CRNA, nor do I desire to be one. With that said, I admit that I have not read through all of the threads on this subject. Seeing that PHYSICAL THERAPISTS now have a DOCTORATE as entry into practice, do you really think, that a career that has a patients life in their hands during surgery, should have an educational preparation less than a PT?. A Doctorate to be really not much more than a glorified exercise tech, like the ones in your health club? (I have a minor in physical education and had many pre PT majors in my classes. So I can comment on their educational preparation- it is not different from the PE majors). I think that all advanced practice nurses should have a doctorate. JMHO. And my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN ,CCRN
Spokane, Washington

Linda, the fact that you had a minor in physical education in no way qualifies you to belittle a profession you know nothing about. :nono: Both my parents and my brother are physical therapists, I think that qualifies me to say that they would be pissed that you had the gall to insult their profession like that. "glorified exercise tech?" You and I share the same career and educational level, and we both know that we would not appreciate it if, say, a dietician that happened to take anatomy (or any other pre-nursing courses) decided that qualified them to declare that we were nothing more than glorified ass-wipers. Try thinking before you type.

91CRN · Mar 28, 2006

Actually, you will find that there are a lot of others on this board who are not even RN's, that still participate. We welcome their participation because it is afterall an open forum.
You will also find that most good anesthesia practitioners put their political feelings aside, whether they're working with CRNA's, RN's, anesthesia tech's, MDA's, whoever all for the team approach to make the best possible anesthesia experience for their patient. I think you went a little far to say that AA's cheapen the profession. JWK freely ascertains that he does not intend to practice independently. Do I agree that they stir the political pot. yes, but so do MDA's and CRNA's. most of the veterans on this board are tired of debating the same stupid conversations that get us no where, like independent pratice for all. If aa's cheapen the profession, then crna's must do the same thing for mda's, or is it vice versa? who really cares is my opinion. We all have the same goal in mind.

Amen to that!

MmacFN · Mar 28, 2006

Pete

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

If the CRNA profession took the same opinion you do right now they wouldnt exist. (remember the lawsuits the "new" anesthesiologists attempted to make CRNAs illegal). The profession wasent even of interest to them until they crunched the dollar signs. Lets not kid ourselves that it was "for the patients".

While i agree with you it might be an old argument; i would suggest these are things that shouldnt be allowed to simply die. However, each person on this website makes the choice to read a thread or not. If you think its a tired argument then dont read it and stop debating it.

Sorry if that seems harsh but there will always be newbies (i see the same thing on the flight med crew site im on) who will ask questions and want to test the debate. Its not wrong, its natural and needed. Doing a search on a topic and finding old posts doesnt answer questions or relate to the current situation.

Anywho, debate on or not

Actually, you will find that there are a lot of others on this board who are not even RN's, that still participate. We welcome their participation because it is afterall an open forum.
You will also find that most good anesthesia practitioners put their political feelings aside, whether they're working with CRNA's, RN's, anesthesia tech's, MDA's, whoever all for the team approach to make the best possible anesthesia experience for their patient. I think you went a little far to say that AA's cheapen the profession. JWK freely ascertains that he does not intend to practice independently. Do I agree that they stir the political pot. yes, but so do MDA's and CRNA's. most of the veterans on this board are tired of debating the same stupid conversations that get us no where, like independent pratice for all. If aa's cheapen the profession, then crna's must do the same thing for mda's, or is it vice versa? who really cares is my opinion. We all have the same goal in mind.

yoga crna · Mar 28, 2006

Whoa guys, how about a little perspective here. I don't have a strong opinion about whether or not CRNAs should be prepared at the doctoral level. What is important to know is, the nurse anesthetist profession is primarily a clinical speciality. Of course, we have educators and administrators, but the majority of us are in clinical practice. Even many anesthesia educators, spend time in the clinical area. My point is--what will the added time and MONEY that is required for the doctorate do to make us more marketable as a profession? At some point, it would make more sense to go to medical school.

This is a topic that needs to be considered at all levels and I hope the people who are making those decisions will be wise enough to get input from many perspectives.

I personally know a lot of CRNAs with various doctorates. Most are educators, a large number of JDs have stayed or gone back to clinical anesthesia, because of the money and opportunities. While those people are generally very bright and motivated, we are all the same when it comes to administering anesthesia. And there is no pay differential for having a doctorate--Medicare and insurance companies pay for a service, not who administers it. That is why the Medicare fee schedule is the same for nurse anesthetists and anesthesiologists.

There is a lot to consider on this issue.

Yoga CRNA

rn29306 · Mar 28, 2006

Whoa guys, how about a little perspective here. I don't have a strong opinion about whether or not CRNAs should be prepared at the doctoral level. What is important to know is, the nurse anesthetist profession is primarily a clinical speciality. Of course, we have educators and administrators, but the majority of us are in clinical practice. Even many anesthesia educators, spend time in the clinical area. My point is--what will the added time and MONEY that is required for the doctorate do to make us more marketable as a profession? At some point, it would make more sense to go to medical school.
This is a topic that needs to be considered at all levels and I hope the people who are making those decisions will be wise enough to get input from many perspectives.
Yoga CRNA

My sentiments exactly, although more eloquent than my previous post.

91CRN · Mar 28, 2006

The point I have been trying to make in this thread is that if you really look at the course-work and clinical/case hours required to become a CRNA (in total) you pretty much have a doctorate. I never meant to imply that CRNAs are over-trained/educated or anything of the sort. I agree it's an important job with a lot of autonomy and the patient deserves the utmost. I do think that if even more education were to be imposed that the logical person would start to weigh in medical school--especially since (as I posted earlier) the odds of getting into med-school are starting to look better than CRNA school and the prerequisites are similar--and in many cases easier (as I also pointed out earlier in the thread--many med-programs are weighing liberal arts backgrounds much more heavily than they used to). Also, look at the first year of medical school, sure you need chemistry, math, but it is expected that you will learn in medical school what you should know to become a MD. For CRNA school prospective students need to be able to hit the ground running with these courses FRESH under their belts, recent extensive ICU experience 3.75-4.0's, killer GREs, the ability to absolutely DAZZLE in an interview--(yes yes--I know many programs don't list these as minimum requirements, but when the competition is so great--you'd better to have any hope of getting in). Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to drive home how absolutely educated and prepared one has to be in the first place to get into a CRNA program--add that to the 50++credits and all the clinical time--that's a doctorate already!!!!! Look at the requirements for a PhD in any other field and see if you'd disagree with me. Nurses are cheated because we aren't given credit for clinical time. If you are going into a clinical field like anesthesia--that just seems crazy to me.