Doctor Frustrations

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Specializes in ER, MICU.

I was recently accepted into CRNA school, and I am quite excited! I was browsing the internet, and found a website (similar to this one) where student MDs can have discussions about practice, etc. I was appauled at what discussions were brought up about Anesthesiologists versus CRNAs. The discussions made CRNAs sound like villians....derogatory terms like "how have we let RNs attain such bloated salaries, with only 2 years of college and a paper certificate...?" "CRNAs are JUST nurses, who think they can safely administer anesthetics....really all they think is they are putting someone to sleep and then waking them up....they don't even hold a candle to the excellent anesthesia in which an MD can administer...." :angryfire

I was just wondering if anyone had some thoughts on this. To me it just validates the fact that physicians (well, these ones) have NO CLUE what RNs do. I guess the gap between MDs and RNs is not near closing....and why? Because of the MDs in my opinion. Most seem so affixiated on this "superiority" complex. Okay! Yay! Good for you! YOU are the "BOSS!" Here's your medal....or should I say your sign...? I suppose if I spent that much time in school I would want recognition for it, but there is no need to sound like ignorant jerks! CRNAs are still nurses, YES! But that in my opinion is what will make us BETTER at administering an anesthetic and really caring for a patient. We know how to talk to the patient! Our model for care is far more holistic than the medical model, which Anesthesia should encorporate, since its also about ensuring patient comfort. AND we are definitely smart enough to safely administer anesthetic to different pt populations with complex disease etiologies.

I work in a large, large teaching institution, where I am constantly feeling as though I am "babysitting" these new residents, who, for example are fresh out of medical school and haven't the slightest idea of what the hell they are doing when placed in the ICU setting. I hate to break it to the self proclaimed "superior/INFALLIBLE" MDs, but we're all human, we all make mistakes.

I just don't get the deal. On many of my CRNA shadowing experiences I was sort of given the impression that there wasn't much tension between the MD anesthesiologists and the CRNAs.

What can I expect here?

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Specializes in Cardiac Telemetry, Emergency, SAFE.

I work with OUTSTANDING CRNA's everyday, who I would reccommend over some of the Anes. docs here anyday. Our anesthesia department is GREAT, with most(if any) of the tension being between the CRNA's themselves and their upper management. I think that being that was a student board, may have a lot to do with their feelings. Theyre vulnerable and being that their "Doctors", having just "nurses" doing their own job better than them, may make then feel insecure.

Congrats on School!

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Congratulations on your acceptance!

I try to keep myself informed on the latest news concerning nurse anesthesia because I am interested in becoming one myself someday, thus I read this forum and others regularly.

One theme that I see is this perpetual "turf war" amongst the various anesthesia providers and it vexes me to no end. I can see where the anesthesiologists have a legitimate gripe--they ARE losing ground. Let's let them be reactionary and backward-looking--all the while nurses forge ahead!

Meh, I have physician assistant friends who bust my chops about wanting to become a CRNA. They say that I'm still "just a nurse." I just tell them that they are physician wannabees who couldn't make the cut...LOL, it's all in good fun.

Those in power never willingly capitulate, and we must face the fact that physicians are perceived by many to be beyond reproach, thus anesthesiologists will ALWAYS protest when anyone gains more of their "market share."

I would prefer to look at the big picture and ask what is best for the patient. This position is more objective and less self-serving. In my impartial, totally objective assessment of this situation I have decided that there is much potential for BETTER care from Nurse Anesthetists for the patient.

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If you look closley only 2 to 3 contributors are posting these things, the rest are medical students or first year residents, they do not know better. You will run into some opposition from time to time, but do your best and take care of the patient.

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I am not a CRNA or on that path, but I have a pretty good idea of the website you visited and that kind of behavior is par for the course over there. Be it Dentist vs hygienist, DO vs MD, MDA vs CRNA, AA vs CRNA, whites vs URM for admissions, Pharm vs MD, NP vs PA, Psychiatry vs psychology etc... any kind of argument that you think you could conjure up, they have had it over there. Not to say that in between all of the nastiness there isn't any good info, but in general the nature of that board is very combative and troll oriented.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.

First if all, if you don't want to know, don't ask. If you don't want to see CRNAs trashed by the likes of jwk and the A$A rabid-types at SDN, don't go there. Their world is NOT the real world. When you say

........CRNAs are still nurses, YES! But that in my opinion is what will make us BETTER at administering an anesthetic and really caring for a patient. .......

you have struck the nut of the matter. They don't get it, they never will get it, and you only frustrate yourself by wishing they would get it.

I often say the world of anesthesia is The Curdle Zone, where the cream of nursing rises to meet the dregs of medicine. That coagulation is not apppetizing.

All IMHO, of course.

d

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Doctors are just trying to protect their profession, and are perpetuating stereotypes and twisting the facts to reinforce their position.

Your post does the same to some extent, portraying the nurse as the one who gives holistic, loving care as opposed to the other kind of care that doctors give (?). I've met plenty of docs, anesthesiologists and others, who have an excellent bedside manner and can give a nurse a run for her money...

At the psych unit, for example, there was a psychiatrist who always bought in some small present/luxury (chocolates, etc.) for the homeless patients. I watched a pediatrician take 15 minutes to really talk to a boy therapeutically about WHY he was biting his fingernails and strategies to stop. I saw an anesthesiology give a massive amount of hand-holding and labor support to a c-section mom who's husband was away on business and couldn't make it to the birth...

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If you look closley only 2 to 3 contributors are posting these things, the rest are medical students or first year residents, they do not know better. You will run into some opposition from time to time, but do your best and take care of the patient.

I know what forum the OP is discussing as I posted a thread on here about it before. I had been visiting that forum for years and unfortunately it is not just students or 1st year residents. They've just moved there superiority complexes, gripes and political actions they intend to take to a private forum. And the majority were seasoned MD anesthesiologists.

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Specializes in ER, MICU.

Wow, thanks for your thoughts everyone. I suppose I was just shocked at what I read on the student MD board, to take such an attack on a profession really doesn't seem merited. I do understand that MDs are trying to protect their 'terf' but I am one of those people who just beleives deep down that the care of a nurse is an invaluable asset. Of course, there are bad nurses, just as there are bad doctors. And its not to say that there aren't any MDs who care out there, because I know there are. Some of my closest friends are MDs who I know really care. BUT you cannot deny the humble, quiet strength of a nurse... a GOOD nurse who really cares. To some that makes all the difference. It is an entirely different scope of practice, and different focus for the patient. I understand there may be differences in "chain of command" but it is important to just focus on the patient, which is what I have always tried to do in my own practice.

To firstyearstudent, I understand what you are saying, that there ARE indeed caring physicians out there. But how many, as compared with an RN, have sat with a patient for hours on their dying day, holding their hand, wiping their mouth, making sure there are comfortable, administering pain medicine, keeping them clean, etc.? These tasks may sound small, but most understand it is a huge responsiblility. To some doctors, they are "menial tasks." Where I work, the doctor sweeps by in his clean, crisp, white coat, signs the DNR/DNI form, may have a breif conversation with family, and then leaves. The nurse remains to carry out this patients plan of care, and ensure the patient experiences a comfortable death, not to mention must gain enough personal strength to be a support mode for countless family members? How many physicians do that? Not many. Not because they perhaps would not if given the chance, but they just don't. They don't have time. They have other patients to see, etc. The nurse is one who experiences a bond and a relationship with a patient in which no other member of the health care team experiences.

What chy'all think?

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I have visited those boards and really got hot under the collar about some of the posts. You will get a very jaded view quick if you start believing most docs subscribe to those points of view. I did myself a favor and just stayed away. Anesthesiologists that I work with are very supportive of my pursuing a CRNA career and tell me to "make them proud". I think some of the posters like to push buttons and take more pride in their ability to debate than in the field of anesthesia.

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the older docs are ok with crnas more because it means more money for them, less hours and they are close to retirement. us young docs are not ok with it because crnas won't leave well enough alone. your aana is constantly on the offensive to take it all over and also likes to lie to get their way. examples: http://www.psanes.org/hb_1256.html

http://www.asahq.org/washington/drlema'slettertoaana5-14-05.pdf

everyone is making good money and has an awesome job... so leave it alone. as people, most of you are equal if not better. as anesthetists, you are still the midlevel. if you want to be the top dog than go the route of the top dog.

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I'm still a student working as an extern at a hospitals. i've read posts at the board you are talking about and after working at the hospital, i think RNs not only deserve what they make, i think they deserve a lot more.

I can't seem to comprehend why docs think RN's shd prolly make less than 50k or whatever... I don't know what makes them think spending 4yrs in med school dictates you have to make 5x more than an rn makes.

It's crazy to here how these ppl think RN's go to school for 2 years. Excuze me but a BSN is 4 yrs and oh...my school has a 5yr program...

so consider the person who does a 4yr bsn, 2yrs critical care and 27months in anesthesia school...that is a lotta training and that person deserves it.

Doctors are not the only ones who have to make big money and if they have issues with ppl with less education making it big, they can go after those who dropped out college to be the worlds richest man or those who never made it past high school but make millions through infomercials or whatever.

I get angry when i hear these silly arguments.

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