Do PAs go to Med School?

Trauma Columnist · Jul 9, 2008

This PA was not technically correct. She went to PA school for two years not med school per se.

FLTraumaRN · Jul 9, 2008

PA's do not attend medical school. There schooling is very different from a traditional medical school.

The PA should have been more specific.

firecoins · Jul 16, 2008

PA training is actually quite similiar to medical school. In fact, PA are trained in the medical model. In the 1960's,the training was based on how MDs were rapidly trained in WWII.

PA schools are usually held in medical schools and may even share some classes.

FLTraumaRN · Jul 17, 2008

They may share some classes and be trained similar, but they are not the same. The patient has a right to know they were taken care of by a mid-level practitioner. Be it CRNA, PA, ARNP,etc. PA's have 2 years training post bachelor's degree and PA's work under the supervision of a physician. They may or may not have any medical training prior to starting the PA program. And they don't have anything close to a medical residency.

I am not knocking PA's or any mid-level practitioner, but they aren't doctors and they shouldn't portray themselves as doctors.

DocHolliday · Jul 17, 2008

My wife was looked at by the PA last appointment instead of her usual OBGYN doctor, and I asked her if she was a doctor, and she replied, "I'm a Physician's Assistant, meaning I went to med school for 2 years instead of 4" !?!
SO I just wanted to ask the fellow CRNA enthusiasts - is that true or what? Maybe there's a forum here for PAs, I just didn't know anything about it I guess.
Thanks

I'm a doctor, and let me tell you this: If I caught the PA in my office misrepresenting her training to my patients like that, I'd personally see to it that she was let go. If I owned the practice, I'd fire her on the spot.

Boy, I'm learning a lot about mid-level providers by reading the posts on this forum. I always knew that they had a hang-up about not being doctors. I was unaware that this hang-up was so extensive that they'd try and fool patients into thinking they were pseudo-doctors.

What the PA told you mother was patently untrue. Not only is PA school half the duration of medical school--meaning that they don't cover the breadth of medical topics covered my medical students, the topics PA schools do cover in the two years are not even covered in the same level of detail.

Editorial Team / Admin · Jul 17, 2008

I'm a doctor, and let me tell you this: If I caught the PA in my office misrepresenting her training to my patients like that, I'd personally see to it that she was let go. If I owned the practice, I'd fire her on the spot.
Boy, I'm learning a lot about mid-level providers by reading the posts on this forum. I always knew that they had a hang-up about not being doctors. I was unaware that this hang-up was so extensive that they'd try and fool patients into thinking they were pseudo-doctors.
What the PA told you mother was patently untrue. Not only is PA school half the duration of medical school--meaning that they don't cover the breadth of medical topics covered my medical students, the topics PA schools do cover in the two years are not even covered in the same level of detail.

You are painting, with a very wide brush, a lot of individuals (APNs/PAs). And, you are incorrect to make such a broad statement.

I respectfully request that you educate yourself about the role of the APN/PA and not generalize and place all of us into one category.

I've never heard such an egotistical statement as the one by this grossly misinformed PA. It is not the norm. Obviously this single PA is incorrect, period.

APNs/PAs are not "doc-wannabes". So, please do not include the vast majority of us in your incorrect statement.

DocHolliday · Jul 17, 2008

You are painting, with a very wide brush, a lot of individuals (APNs/PAs). And, you are incorrect to make such a broad statement.
I respectfully request that you educate yourself about the role of the APN/PA and not generalize and place all of us into one category.
I've never heard such an egotistical statement as the one by this grossly misinformed PA. It is not the norm. Obviously this single PA is incorrect, period.
APNs/PAs are not "doc-wannabes". So, please do not include the vast majority of us in your incorrect statement.

I would agree that it's not the norm, but I'm a firm believer in the idea that where there's smoke, there's fire.

I work with mid-levels regularly, and although I have never had a bad experience with them clinically (i.e. no royal screw-ups), I have nevertheless encountered some who were brash enough to second-guess me, and on a couple of occasions, in front of patients.

I had no idea that there could exist a mid-level who'd say such a thing like they attended medical school for two years rather than four.

firecoins · Jul 17, 2008

I'm a doctor, and let me tell you this: If I caught the PA in my office misrepresenting her training to my patients like that, I'd personally see to it that she was let go. If I owned the practice, I'd fire her on the spot.

I agree.

Boy, I'm learning a lot about mid-level providers by reading the posts on this forum. I always knew that they had a hang-up about not being doctors. I was unaware that this hang-up was so extensive that they'd try and fool patients into thinking they were pseudo-doctors

As already mentioned, don't let the moronic postings of a few mid level morons poison your view of the whole profession.

Editorial Team / Admin · Jul 17, 2008

I would agree that it's not the norm, but I'm a firm believer in the idea that where there's smoke, there's fire.
I work with mid-levels regularly, and although I have never had a bad experience with them clinically (i.e. no royal screw-ups), I have nevertheless encountered some who were brash enough to second-guess me, and on a couple of occasions, in front of patients.
I had no idea that there could exist a mid-level who'd say such a thing like they attended medical school for two years rather than four.

That is disrespectful; to "second guess" you in front of the patient. I hope you handled that situation so it will not happen again. But, please bear in mind this is a show of disrespect and not of ability(s) to practice and/or education. This is strictly a sociological downfall of the individual(s) involved.

"Second guessing"......I will have to assume you mean the individual(s) involved were questioning a decision you made or an order you gave? Since I was not there, I cannot comment if it was appropriate or not. Perhaps it simply meant the individual(s) were requiring additional rationale as to your observations/dx? But, as I said, I cannot intelligently respond as I was not there. I do know it showed a lack of respect on their part to do this in front of the patient.

Again, this really has nothing to do with ability(s) and/or education. You will find "bad apples" everywhere; NPs, PAs, CNRAs, MDs.........everywhere.

DocHolliday · Jul 17, 2008

That is disrespectful; to "second guess" you in front of the patient. I hope you handled that situation so it will not happen again. But, please bear in mind this is a show of disrespect and not of ability(s) to practice and/or education. This is strictly a sociological downfall of the individual(s) involved.
"Second guessing"......I will have to assume you mean the individual(s) involved were questioning a decision you made or an order you gave? Since I was not there, I cannot comment if it was appropriate or not. Perhaps it simply meant the individual(s) were requiring additional rationale as to your observations/dx? But, as I said, I cannot intelligently respond as I was not there. I do know it showed a lack of respect on their part to do this in front of the patient.
Again, this really has nothing to do with ability(s) and/or education. You will find "bad apples" everywhere; NPs, PAs, CNRAs, MDs.........everywhere.

When I say "second guess", in some cases I am asked something along the lines of, "Dr. S., don't you think it would be better to...." or "I really think we should XYZ instead of ABC" (ABC being what I recommended or ordered). As I've said, this has happened on a couple of occasions in front of patients. I've even had a PA actually change an order I made for a post-op patient of mine without consulting me first.

Believe it or not, this kind of stuff doesn't upset me. I certainly think they are out of line by doing so, but I don't get upset about it--at least, not enough to say something to them about it. (I'll admit that I'm far more willing to engage in confrontation on this forum than I am with the mid-levels with whom I work.) I hate confrontation in the workplace, so I usually just indulge their fantasy that I am required to explain my decisions to them, and just go ahead and explain my decisions to them.

Editorial Team / Admin · Jul 17, 2008

When I say "second guess", in some cases I am asked something along the lines of, "Dr. S., don't you think it would be better to...." or "I really think we should XYZ instead of ABC" (ABC being what I recommended or ordered). As I've said, this has happened on a couple of occasions in front of patients.

It appears whoever is posing these questions is really over-stepping their bounds in regards to not only questioning your expertise, but showing you disrespect at the same time....... and especially to do it in front of the patient. I'm appalled.

I've even had a PA actually change an order I made for a post-op patient of mine without consulting me first.

Actually change an order? Not only is that disrespectful, it's absolutely wrong. I would certainly consult with either the Attending Physician and/or the Surgeon first just out of professional courtesy/respect.

Believe it or not, this kind of stuff doesn't upset me. I certainly think they are out of line by doing so, but I don't get upset about it--at least, not enough to say something to them about it. (I'll admit that I'm far more willing to engage in confrontation on this forum than I am with the mid-levels with whom I work.) I hate confrontation in the workplace, so I usually just indulge their fantasy that I am required to explain my decisions to them, and just go ahead and explain my decisions to them.

Please indulge me for a little bit and I mean this with all due respect........since you say "this kind of stuff doesn't upset me"........could it really be upsetting you to the point that you are venting your frustrations about all NPs, PAs; mid-levels in general here when in reality, you should be addressing the issues in real life??

I totally can understand and relate to not wanting any type of confrontation, but it appears that the above scenarios should be addressed. Explaining the rationale behind your decisions is perfectly acceptable, but to do so because you must rationalize your decisions to their satisfaction before you act, is not.