DNP vs MD

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What is the difference between DNP and MD? How long does it take to become a DNP if you already have BSN degree? I thought nurses had problems with docs, but one day I visited the student doctor website and I was surprised to see how many student docs, docs, pharmacists were against the DNP program/degree and some did not have any respect for nurses. Many had horrible things to say about nursing and nurses, they said it's easy to become a nurse and not a lot of training is required. One person said, "lets face it, doctors can survive without nurses and they can have a resident do what nurses do, but if the hospital takes the doctors out the nurses will struggle and the hospital will die."

Do doctors forget that nurses are the largest group of healthcare? Doctors are never there to see the condition of their patients, they don't know if the meds are doing what they are supposed to do. Nurses are the ones that know the patients better and they let the docs know what is going on.

Some said," if nurses want to be called doctors they should go to medical school and not attending a new program DNP. To be a doctor they need more years of school." I swear some people think that years of school predict intelligence, years of school make you a better nurse, doctor, etc. Really, what's the difference in school years between DNP and MD ?

It's becoming a big war b/w nurses and doctors. Let's face it, one can't work without the other. They both need each others help.

Specializes in FNP, ONP.
Wrong. The DNP is intended to help NP's compete with doctors by trying to negate the educational difference between an MD and NP. That's why CRNAs will require a DNP. Slowly all NP's will require a DNP even if its online through a for-profit college.

The degree you're thinking of that is purely to advance nursing knowledge has been around for along time- it's called a Nursing PhD.

Wrong. the DNP has nothing to do with negating the difference between MD and NP. It has nothing whatsoever to do with physicians. Your theory is horse manure. The Doctorate of Nursing Practice is designed to educate/prepare expert APN clinicians to disseminate research into practice, provide clinical leadership, teach, and yes, add to nursing knowledge through scholarly reporting.

PhD prepared nurses will always be relied upon to generate original research and nursing theory. We DNP prepared APNs and CNSs will put that research and theory to practice and discuss it's implications. We work hand in glove. PhD and DNP Nurses are ideal partners for patient care improvement.

I am a DNP prepared APN, so I am a little better informed on the particulars of my education and practice than you, apparently because in my case it isn't just opinion or theory, it is what I do.

Specializes in FNP, ONP.
Except most people work full or part-time during their DNP programs. I worked full-time, deployed, and completed a full-time DNAP program in 2 years (post-MSN).

Medical/DO school with residency/internship is a minimum of 8 years with low pay during internship/residency.

A CRNAs average pay is more than FP physicians. The average salary for NPs is around 100K which about 2/3 what the average FP physician makes. There just isn't a simple way to compare salaries and loss of incomes when considering DNP/APN or MD.

I worked PT (but I've always worked PT, I'm allergic to FT work, lol) and attended school PT and my DNP took 3.5 years. My Capstone was quite involved and it alone took 2 years to implement because it was a statewide project that required approval of the governor, and State Dept. of Health.

If I worked FT now I'd earn 200K/y in family practice, but my wife and I believe time is more important than money, so we opt to both work PT so I earn proportionately less, accordingly. There is plenty of money to be earned in family prac if one negotiates well, sees the right mix of pts and codes/bills appropriately.

Specializes in FNP, ONP.
So now we are left with the decision of pursuing MD or DNP... 3 years (11 semesters) for full time DNP program, $80000 to 5 years ( part time) $75000-105,000 or MD: 4 years unpaid plus 3 paid about 50k and about $100k for tuition... Making double that of a DNP.

Nothing about this is correct, generalizing aside.

I have never had any student debt of any kind. Even my DNP was free, I was a University Merit Scholar at Duke. I will earn over $180,000 this year.

The average medical student owes $250-300,000 upon graduation.

There is no way to compare physician salary to any APN salary. As per my example, different situations are going to work out better for different people.

However, your little "summary" above is completely nonsensical in just about every instance.

Specializes in Consultation Liaison Psychiatry.

The DNP is not similar to the MD. You can get a DNP with a leadership or education focus and no advanced clinical training. NP's with DNP's do not have more clinical training than do MSN prepared NP's. Their additional hours are practice hours, not clinical. We all need to be very clear that DNP training is not at all comparable to medical training. Physicians spend thousand's of hours in clinical training and then graduate to another 3-5 years of focused clinical training. NP's are advanced practice nurses who provide skilled care. We need to accept that we are not the same as MD/DO's. Read the work around the development of the DNP. Nowhere does it compare our education to that of physicians.

Specializes in Consultation Liaison Psychiatry.

The DNP was in no way meant to prepare NP's to compete with physicians. Too many people actually believe this and it certainly adds to animosity between prifessions. More clinical training is not even necessarily included. Practice hours spent in development if a process improvement project cannot be compared to clinical training in assessment, diagnosis and treatment of patients.

Nothing about this is correct, generalizing aside.

I have never had any student debt of any kind. Even my DNP was free, I was a University Merit Scholar at Duke. I will earn over $180,000 this year.

The average medical student owes $250-300,000 upon graduation.

There is no way to compare physician salary to any APN salary. As per my example, different situations are going to work out better for different people.

However, your little "summary" above is completely nonsensical in just about every instance.

Im sorry I should have clarified this is for the state of Minnesota and many schools I've looked at in the Midwest. We are not all university scholar merits so that definitely isn't "the norm" either so yes different situations for different people is right.

So no my "little summary" is quite sensical in actually many schools across the Midwest. I can list the links if that's what needs to be.

In the southeast MSN/DNP education should not cost $80,000 if you attend a public school. To compare cost of education at UNC which has one of the least expensive MD programs in the country - cost of tuition for MSN per year $7,877.00 and cost of DNP program is ~$27,000 so total tuition may be ~$45,000. Compare this to the MD program with total cost of tuition at $17,537 per year with average student debt ~$100,000.

I attended a state regional school and my MSN was ~15,000 which I mostly paid for by scholarships and the rest was paid out of pocket allowing me to graduate debt free. The DNP program I plan to attend is also

Comparing the MD and MSN/DNP is made more difficult when you consider that a student can very easily work full/part time while enrolled in a school of nursing allowing a student to at least cover living expenses that would have to be added to student loans in a medical program. This is in part why the average medical school debt in 2013 was $170,000 (AMA).

I have thought long and hard about pursuing medical school and may ultimately regret my decision to stay with nursing. However, the ROI would take many years to recoup the significant debt that I would have to incur and the lost wages during training even considering the eventual pay increase.

I do not think that the DNP should be compared to the MD in either didactics or economics.

Why does everyone insist that the DNP requires no more clinicals than an MSN? In my BSN-DNP program I spent over 1300 hours in clinicals. I've never seen an MSN require that much.

Why does everyone insist that the DNP requires no more clinicals than an MSN? In my BSN-DNP program I spent over 1300 hours in clinicals. I've never seen an MSN require that much.

Because there is no standard requirement for DNP clinical hours. Some schools may have thousands of clinical hours in their BSN to DNP programs, other post-masters DNP programs may have no additional clinical requirements. This is especially true if it is a DNP in management / leadership or education (as a previous poster pointed out).

Specializes in FNP, ONP.

I propose if one doesn't have a DNP, or isn't enrolled in a DNP program, one refrains from pontificating on something about which they are completely ignorant. No more of this "I hear," "I read," I was told," malarky. That would probably work out best for everyone.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Why does everyone insist that the DNP requires no more clinicals than an MSN? In my BSN-DNP program I spent over 1300 hours in clinicals. I've never seen an MSN require that much.

I spent a lot more than 1300 hours just in the OR during my MSN clinicals. Clinical hours are normally tied to the accreditation requirements from their respective APN associations.

Specializes in Psychiatry.

As far as psychiatry goes, NP does equal MD/DO. I have practiced for over 7 years with psychiatrists, and the only difference I have noted is a few rare tidbits of neurochemical knowledge and a terrible bedside manner in many cases.

A few psychiatrists are better than any NP I have met, and a lot are worse. MD/DO's are all very different, much like NP's. Some are great, some are horrible. Some went to random foreign schools, some went to Stanford. One good thing about NP's in psychiatry is that they didn't have to work for a few years as a slave for 40k, and actually understand people from various walks of life. I consider the first few years of NP practice as residency, and makes sense if NP's are "supervised" directly out of school. NP's should definitely have a residency where they are paid fair wages.

My favorite part is the MD's claim that the USMLE's are important. Most physicians seem to have the fraternity mentality - that is, you pay your dues or you don't get the respect. Ridiculous. I passed the Step 3 "nursing" watered down test with a Master's. I got a 40 on the MCAT. 50 years of research shows NP's have the same, if not better, outcomes with patients. So who cares?

Med school needs to be updated to be taken seriously. Gone are the days of the GP who was a physician and actual surgeon. Nowadays, the internist is master of none, and so most MD's specialize. Except for surgeons, none of the physicians are surgeons. And they even embrace DO's as equals, despite the fact they don't pass the same tests as MD's. Physicians fleeing primary care is exactly why NP's exist.

Let's give it a rest on the NP's and let us all help patients. That's why we became healthcare providers, to help patients, and not to engage in a pissing contest. Besides, NP's make less and can help ease the strain on your workaholic selves.

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