CRNA vs. anesthesiologist

[jermaughan0814]

Besides the "Initials MD, vs CRNA" what are the practicing differerences between a CRNA and and anesthesiologist. For the CRNA's out there, what was it that led you to make the choice to become CRNA's vs. anesthesiologist. Also I am finishing my B.S. in nursing, and would love to persue a CRNA degree but I am cautious because of all of the physics involved. I would love any input on pro's and con's of this position. THANKS

[jwk]

I cannot believe this argument has been going on this long. I do feel holiday is in the wrong place for his arguments, even though I agree with him. And I do find it somwhat offensive when he refers to those who do not have the education he has as mid levels.

anyways, FYI I am starting CRNA school in jan, and these are my opinions. There is abosoluetly no way you can compare med school to any type of school nurses go through. nursing school is a joke, the hard sciences are not drilled into your head like they are in med school. yes, in nursing school you will get some, but it just doesnt compare. now in CRNA school I feel that is a comparison, (and I currently know a CRNA who is going back for their MD and this is what I have been told) however, the 27 months doesnt compare to the total of what MDA's have been through. and to compare working as an ICU nurse for years does not to compare to residency.

I believe CRNA's can do anything an MDA does, and they are trained to do everything an MDA does. however I do see holiday's point in stating the more intimate knowledge of the body and sciencies that they built up over the years is greater than a CRNA.

Wow, ya had me going until your 3rd paragraph.

[DocHolliday]

I cannot believe this argument has been going on this long. I do feel holiday is in the wrong place for his arguments, even though I agree with him. And I do find it somwhat offensive when he refers to those who do not have the education he has as mid levels.

You are mid-levels. In fact, the state legislature in my state refers to advanced practice nurses and physician assistants as "mid-levels". I'm sorry you don't like the title. Would you prefer we call you "doctor"?

anyways, FYI I am starting CRNA school in jan, and these are my opinions. There is abosoluetly no way you can compare med school to any type of school nurses go through. nursing school is a joke, the hard sciences are not drilled into your head like they are in med school. yes, in nursing school you will get some, but it just doesnt compare.

Yes. Nursing school is a joke. Yet CRNAs, when tabulating the amount of education they've received and comparing them year-for-year with the education of anesthesiologists, give their two years of nursing school the same level of consideration as two years of medical school. Surely you can see my problem with that.

]now in CRNA school I feel that is a comparison, (and I currently know a CRNA who is going back for their MD and this is what I have been told) however, the 27 months doesnt compare to the total of what MDA's have been through. and to compare working as an ICU nurse for years does not to compare to residency.

No, there is no comparison. CRNA programs teach nurses to provide anesthesia services--which almost certainly means some anesthesia-related medicine, pharmacology of general anesthetics, intubation, and so on and so forth, as well as some anesthesia trouble-shooting. They do not teach nurses to serve as physicians who have intimate knowledge of human health and disease, and who have diagnostic capacity. This is a very clear distinction between anesthesiologists and CRNAs.

I believe CRNA's can do anything an MDA does, and they are trained to do everything an MDA does. however I do see holiday's point in stating the more intimate knowledge of the body and sciencies that they built up over the years is greater than a CRNA.

I can't believe I'm hearing this. On one hand, you admit that anesthesiologists have "the more intimate knowledge of the body and (medical) sciences, yet you maintain that CRNAs are trained to do everything an anesthesiologist does.

So, there is but one conclusion that one can make from your statement above: That anesthesiologists possess a lot of knowledge that is of no use to anesthesia.

Is there any other conclusion I should draw from your statement?

now on the comment about the situation with the crna who he thought had a brian fart or something. I have seen some pretty stupid things done by MDA's also, even so that the icu nurse caught somethign he didnt, so it happens.

tony.

That CRNA didn't have a brain fart. Obviously, she knew about paralytic agents. They use vecuronium from time to time. She flat-out didn't know what the hell I was talking about! I had to explain to her the connection between muscles and bones!

And the educational disparity between physicians and mid-levels doesn't stop there. I have seen many instances when mid-levels did things or said things that clearly demonstrated a real deficiency is knowledge of various medical topics.

Two other examples:

During my residency, one of the staff had symptoms of a common cold, which I personally diagnosed as a cold. The ARNP started an IV and administered (without permission) a single dose of 900mg of Cleocin, along with a bag of Ringer's. I asked her what the clinda was for, to which she responded, "Sarah is feeling sick". It's as though she had no grasp of bacterial vs. viral infections, nor any grasp of antibiotics and their spectrums (clinda is not even remotely the drug of choice for bacterial URI's. She used it, despite the fact that we had ampicillin available). Mind you, she was not fresh out of her ARNP program. She had been at it for several years.

As a first-year med student, just a couple of months into the year, I went to student health once because I was sick. and the ARNP asked me (after deciding that I needed antibiotics) "which antibiotic works best for you"? Even at the time, I knew that the lady didn't have a clue what she was doing.

These are not the kinds of mistakes physicians make. If we make mistakes, they are absent-minded mistakes, i.e. the kinds of mistakes any human being is going to make. These mistakes by these ARNP's, were clearly a sign of knowledge deficiency.

[hbgwan, LPN, LVN]

Yes. Nursing school is a joke.

say WHAT???? you HAVE to be kidding me. you have to be one of the most arrogant and self-centered people i have ever met. wait - we've never met nor would i ever want to.

[tonyccrn]

You are mid-levels. In fact, the state legislature in my state refers to advanced practice nurses and physician assistants as "mid-levels". I'm sorry you don't like the title. Would you prefer we call you "doctor"?

Yes. Nursing school is a joke. Yet CRNAs, when tabulating the amount of education they've received and comparing them year-for-year with the education of anesthesiologists, give their two years of nursing school the same level of consideration as two years of medical school. Surely you can see my problem with that.

No, there is no comparison. CRNA programs teach nurses to provide anesthesia services--which almost certainly means some anesthesia-related medicine, pharmacology of general anesthetics, intubation, and so on and so forth, as well as some anesthesia trouble-shooting. They do not teach nurses to serve as physicians who have intimate knowledge of human health and disease, and who have diagnostic capacity. This is a very clear distinction between anesthesiologists and CRNAs.

I can't believe I'm hearing this. On one hand, you admit that anesthesiologists have "the more intimate knowledge of the body and (medical) sciences, yet you maintain that CRNAs are trained to do everything an anesthesiologist does.

So, there is but one conclusion that one can make from your statement above: That anesthesiologists possess a lot of knowledge that is of no use to anesthesia.

Is there any other conclusion I should draw from your statement?

That CRNA didn't have a brain fart. Obviously, she knew about paralytic agents. They use vecuronium from time to time. She flat-out didn't know what the hell I was talking about! I had to explain to her the connection between muscles and bones!

And the educational disparity between physicians and mid-levels doesn't stop there. I have seen many instances when mid-levels did things or said things that clearly demonstrated a real deficiency is knowledge of various medical topics.

Two other examples:

During my residency, one of the staff had symptoms of a common cold, which I personally diagnosed as a cold. The ARNP started an IV and administered (without permission) a single dose of 900mg of Cleocin, along with a bag of Ringer's. I asked her what the clinda was for, to which she responded, "Sarah is feeling sick". It's as though she had no grasp of bacterial vs. viral infections, nor any grasp of antibiotics and their spectrums (clinda is not even remotely the drug of choice for bacterial URI's. She used it, despite the fact that we had ampicillin available). Mind you, she was not fresh out of her ARNP program. She had been at it for several years.

As a first-year med student, just a couple of months into the year, I went to student health once because I was sick. and the ARNP asked me (after deciding that I needed antibiotics) "which antibiotic works best for you"? Even at the time, I knew that the lady didn't have a clue what she was doing.

These are not the kinds of mistakes physicians make. If we make mistakes, they are absent-minded mistakes, i.e. the kinds of mistakes any human being is going to make. These mistakes by these ARNP's, were clearly a sign of knowledge deficiency.

hey genious, did i say anything about calling me doctor?

like i said it happens, I got a patinet back from the OR the other day, the report from the MDA, during report MDA stated pt was in a-fib, umm no patient had a pronounced U wave becuase patient was hypokalemic. it was misinterpreted for A-fib. even a mid level such as myself caught that.

tony

[DocHolliday]

say WHAT???? you HAVE to be kidding me. you have to be one of the most arrogant and self-centered people i have ever met. wait - we've never met nor would i ever want to.

I used to provide tutoring services in basic medical sciences when I was a med student, and some of the students I tutored were nursing students. Hence, I have some direct 'exposure' to a BSN curriculum, and as a result, I can say with quite a bit of confidence that nursing school is an absolute joke compared to medical school.

[sirI, MSN, APRN, NP]

Thread closed for staff review.