CRNA Program Rankings

Passin' Gas · Nov 22, 2003

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/about/04method_brief.php

Please read and understand how the rankings are derived.....

The ranking methodology

Each year, U.S. News ranks graduate programs in the areas of business, education, engineering, law, and medicine. These rankings are based on two types of data:** expert opinion about program quality and statistical indicators that measure the quality of a school's faculty, research, and students. **For the rankings in all five areas, indicator and opinion data come from surveys of more than 1,000 programs and nearly 7,000 academics and other professionals conducted in the fall of 2002.

This year, we also produced new rankings of graduate programs in selected health fields and the fine arts, surveying nearly 2,000 faculty and administrators. The rankings in these fields, plus those from previous years in health-related fields, humanities, sciences, social sciences, and public affairs, are based solely on the ratings of academic experts.

**To gather the opinion data, we asked deans, program directors, and senior faculty to judge the overall academic quality of programs in their field on a scale of 1 ("marginal") to 5 ("outstanding"). **In business, education, engineering, law, and medicine, we also surveyed professionals in the field who are part of the hiring process.

The statistical indicators used in our rankings of business, education, engineering, law, and medical schools fall into two broad categories: inputs, or measures of the qualities that students and faculty bring to the educational experience; and outputs, measures of graduates' achievements that can be credited to their educational experience.

Different output measures are available for different fields, and, as a result, the indicators we use in our models vary. In business, the immediate impact of students' education can be gauged by their salaries after graduation and by how much time it takes them to find jobs. In law, we also look at how long it takes grads to land jobs, plus their bar exam passage rates. In the other fields we rank, job placement data aren't tracked as rigorously, so in our calculations we use data like-for one example-the percentage of graduates entering the field in primary-care medicine.

To arrive at a school's rank, we examined the distribution of the data for each quality indicator. Where the data deviated significantly from the normal distribution, we used standard statistical techniques to make the distribution of the values closer to that of a normal curve. We then standardized the value of these indicators about its mean. The weights applied to the indicators reflect the relative importance of the indicators, as developed in consultation with experts in each field. (Detailed information about the weights and indicators appears with the tables.) The final scores were rescaled: The highest-scoring school was assigned 100, and the other schools' scores were recalculated as a percentage of that top score. The scores were then rounded to the nearest whole number and schools placed in descending order. Every school's performance is presented relative to the other schools with which it is being compared. So a school with an overall score of 100 did not necessarily top out on every indicator; rather it accumulated the highest composite score. A school's rank reflects the number of schools that sit above it; if three schools are tied at 1, the next school will be numbered 4, not 2. Schools that are tied are listed in alphabetical order.

CougRN · Nov 22, 2003

Seems very subjective to me. Just look at where TWU ended up and they have a 100% pass rate on boards. Same with St. Joe's over the past couple of years.

Any practicing CRNA's see these rankings effecting their ability to find work at their top places to work? Just wondering if these rankings have any bearing when you graduate and go to work.

Thanks

kmchugh · Nov 22, 2003

Originally posted by CougRN
Any practicing CRNA's see these rankings effecting their ability to find work at their top places to work? Just wondering if these rankings have any bearing when you graduate and go to work.

As near as I can tell, the only thing that affects your ability to find work is whether or not you can put CRNA behind your name. Where you got it is generally irrelevant.

These rankings rely on "expert" opinion, which is a highly subjective measure. Newman University has graduated three classes, and they have a 100% first time pass rate. That alone should be enough to move them up considerably in the rankings. Also, these rankings do not include other factors, such as class size. Newman accepts 12 students per year. Wesleyan, last I heard, accepts 90 a year, and that number may have gone up. At which program do you think you will get more individualized attention? On the other hand, which program offers you a better chance of getting in? I've also heard a rumor that Wesleyan makes a TON of money off it's CRNA program, which is then funnelled into the Wesleyan Law School, which doesn't seem to be quite the money maker. I'm not slamming Wesleyan, they turn out good graduates. But, these are all factors to be considered when comparing schools.

I've said before, and will say again: If you are considering becoming a CRNA, pay no attention to what ANY magazine says about "ranking" schools. Do the research yourself. Look for a school that most closely matches your desires and learning styles. If you graduate with a Master's degree, if the school prepares you well enough to pass boards, and you end up being able to use the title "CRNA," it won't matter whether you graduated from Harvard or Podunk U.

Kevin McHugh

deepz · Nov 22, 2003

Originally posted by Passin' Gas
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/about/04method_brief.php

Please read and understand how the rankings are derived.....

The ranking methodology

.........

Here's another url specific to rankings in health fields:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/about/04hea_meth_brief.php

deepz

crnaonline · Nov 23, 2003

I just wanted to post a short reply to the CRNA ranking thread. I am the Program Director at a program which was not highly ranked. (Full Disclosure). As the survey was conducted, Program Directors were asked to provide ranking data for the Programs with which they were familiar. Many PD's felt that there was a dearth of objective evidence by which to complete the form i.e. best clinical rotations, broadest regional experience, highest scores/passing rate on the certification exam etc. We were asked only what our general impressions of the Program were. As such, many PD's did not respond to the survey, feeling that it was little more than a popularity contest. Call Newsweek and ask them their response rate to their survey if you like. I know all the programs in the top ten and they are all high quality prorams. I just don't want students to think that if they attend a program ranked in the 30's that it is necessarily a second tier program. Top ten lists pervade the media now because they are easy to construct, have a high degree of "sex appeal" and sell alot of magazines. You are all nurses. I'm sure there are physicians in your hospital who have been named to regional or national top ten lists that you would not choose as your physician. Use good sense and a little research when making your decisions

Passin' Gas · Nov 23, 2003

Thanks for sharing the true method for compiling these rankings. I knew they were less than statistically sound but did not realize how subjective they really are.

crnaonline · Nov 23, 2003

Subjective they were, but what really invalidates the rankings in my eye is that so many program directors declined to participate. The survey was a topic on our own discussion board and there was strong sentiment expressed against participation by a number of participants.

TraumaNurse · Nov 24, 2003

crnaonline,

Thank you for your input. I have always felt that those rankings are not a very good representation of what a program or hospital is actually like. One of the programs I have been very impressed with did not even make the list. Over the years I have worked in a couple of hospitals that were "Nationally Ranked" as one of the "Best" and believe me, there was nothing impressive about those hospitals. One of the grungiest, poorly staffed and poorly equipped hospitals I have ever been in, is consistantly ranked as one of the best hospitals in the country...I guess it depends on who you ask. I am choosing a CRNA program based on the criteria that is most important to me...not how high it ranks in a magazine. My 2 cents.

ThinkingAboutIt · Nov 24, 2003

Thanks for the information. Regrettfully, I waisted $10 on getting full access to the survey. I and many others are just looking for a good honest assessment of the value of what schools are offering for thier money, and not a popularity content. I would have though an organization like Newsweek would have put together a panel of "experts" in the field and came up with a number of sound criteria on which to measure the schools. Guess, thier way was easy, quicker, and cheaper!

NCgirl · Nov 24, 2003

Just another point- In one state's student anesthesia bowl this year (at state meeting), a school listed in the 40's beat a top ten school. Granted, that's just one little trivia game. But it's simply a point how ridiculous and unreliable these polls are. All of the competition is---all that matters is that you end up with CRNA behind your name. I'll agree with Kevin, you have to find your fit! Do you want to go to a top ten school where you'd have to compete with residents, or a "lower ranked school" where there are no residents? OR, it could be that exact opposite situation. My advice to all SRNA wannabe's--research, research, research. Ask tons of questions. Make sure you know what you're getting into at each individual program! I gave up spots at two schools ranked higher than the one I chose, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm in the right place for me!

elkpark · Nov 24, 2003

I, too, have occasionally looked at the "rankings" of undergraduate and graduate nursing programs published in the national news magazines and used to wonder how the scores were arrived at, since nursing schools that I knew from my colleagues and mentors were considered among the best in the country were ranked relatively low.

A mentor of mine in grad school told me that the final "scores" are derived largely from the amount of research money awarded to the program by the federal government and other granting agencies. Those figures, of course, would have v. little to do with the quality of the teaching and clinical experience a program provides to students.

It makes sense that if, as others on this thread have commented, leaders in the field are reluctant to respond to a highly subjective opinion poll (as I would be!), the magazines would fall back on hard numbers that are readily available to them (even if the numbers don't really measure anything terribly significant or relevant).

I just don't bother to look at the annual listings anymore ...