CRNA so why not CRNS? Certified Register Nurse Surgeon? (devil's advocate)

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I would imagine that we would be hard pressed to find a nurse that does not agree with the century of success that CRNAs have earned and enjoyed.

If nurses can provide anesthesia (with rigourous study and training and advanced degree) as safely as MDs, why can't a similiar program be developed to create CRNS, Certified Registered Nurse Surgeons?

How about nurse radiologists? Why couldn't nurses in rigourous advanced degree programs be used to fill in the glaring gaps in healthcare?

(Please bear with me a moment. I am playing devil's advocate. Some of the ideas I present might be hot buton, but I am sure we can discuss them without getting too heated.)

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Because nursing is a "stupid" profession.

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Specializes in Policy, Emergency OR, Peds OR, CVOR.
Because nursing is a "stupid" profession.

OUCH.

I'm gonna get out of the way and watch this firestorm from way over there

:sofahider

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because surgeons are doctors by definition?

i mean CRNA is not the same as an anesthesiologist. it's another profession in and of itself. not a replacement, per se.

are nurse practitioners the same as doctors? no. why not just an NP with a specialty in whatever surgery? that would make more sense.

maybe if they come up with another name for it, but i don't see that happening anytime soon.

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To further clarify, nurses function in an entirely different paradigm than doctors....and advanced practice nurses like CRNAs and NPs function in entirely different paradigms than internists, GPs, or anesthesiologists.

At least they're SUPPOSED to!

definition of surgeon from dictionary.com:

A physician specializing in surgery.

The closest a nurse can get to being certified registerd nurse doctor is if he/she is has special certification in something, is an RN in their area, and also a PhD.

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Specializes in ER/Trauma.

I think I agree with control.

OP: Because doing so might cause what is sometimes refered to as "duplication of resources" ?

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Why couldn't nurses in rigourous advanced degree programs be used to fill in the glaring gaps in healthcare?

Well for starters the biggest gaps in health care, in my neck of the woods at least, is not in medicine but in Nursing! Another question that I would have is that, under the present system, when a CRNA is passing gas for an operation, the MD is really in charge and has ultimate responsibility. What would happen if we had a CRNS and CRNA doing the same surgery? Now, I could see a CRNS being the second surgeon in any operation that requires 2 surgeons. Personally I like the idea that I can "blame" the doctor when a patient is unhappy with his/her treatment. Of course I work in a psychiatric hospital and the doctor usually isn't there when the patient becomes unhappy. Well, treat yourself nice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

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Why couldn't nurses in rigourous advanced degree programs be used to fill in the glaring gaps in healthcare?

Well for starters the biggest gaps in health care, in my neck of the woods at least, is not in medicine but in Nursing! Another question that I would have is that, under the present system, when a CRNA is passing gas for an operation, the MD is really in charge and has ultimate responsibility. What would happen if we had a CRNS and CRNA doing the same surgery? Now, I could see a CRNS being the second surgeon in any operation that requires 2 surgeons. Personally I like the idea that I can "blame" the doctor when a patient is unhappy with his/her treatment. Of course I work in a psychiatric hospital and the doctor usually isn't there when the patient becomes unhappy. Well, treat yourself nice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice.

This is a great point. There's no glaring gap/deficit of surgeons. At all. In fact I think there is a surplus.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
...when a CRNA is passing gas for an operation, the MD is really in charge and has ultimate responsibility.

Personally I like the idea that I can "blame" the doctor when a patient is unhappy with his/her treatment.

This is not true....CRNA's (in many states, but not all) are NOT required to work under the supervision of an MD and are considered licensed independent practitioners....in addition, we are held to the standard of practice for providing safe anesthesia care....so even if we are in an environment in which we are medically directed or supervised, and something goes wrong, it is our butts on the line.....not the MD. If you give a drug as an RN that a doctor ordered (and the order was written wrong, for example) and you end up killing your patient, you're the one that's going down for it.....doesn't matter that the order was written wrong, you are held to the standard of care as an RN and you should have double checked the order before giving it.....same situation as a CRNA....

Seems that you may be a little misinformed about the job description of a CRNA and the standards that we are held to......check out the CRNA forum and read some of the stickies up top and maybe it will help out a little.....

Tracie

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Sorry, WVUturtle, I was just trying to be brief, I'm aware of the responsibilities of CRNAs. As a matter of fact, it used to be that they would allow me to hang around with them. Just teasing. Take care and keep your stick on the ice.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.

To the original poster:

My opinion is that is has nothing to do with the ability of nurses being able to fill in these gaps in the healthcare (look at, for example, NP's, nurse midwives, RN-first assistants, etc....). I too believe that with extra, extensive training, that nurses could certainly step into these specialties. I think the problem is more political in nature than anything.....I do not forsee the AMA or any other politically active medical groups allowing nurses to "overstep their boundaries" or encroach on the "territory" of medicine. Their line of thinking is, "if you want to be a surgeon, go to med school." Just my two cents.....

Tracie ;)

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
Take care and keep your stick on the ice.

I don't get this.....or am I just slow? LOL.....take care.

Tracie :lol2:

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