Community College Selection Process-What A Joke!

U.S.A. California

Published

I am one of those middle-aged students who just applied for the Nursing Program at my local college. I was very careful to pick a college that based their selection process on merit. However, the local college I attend was forced by the Chancellor of the California Community College system to change the selection criteria for the Nursing program. Some of you know this new process as the lottery system. This happened well into the process of working on my Prereqs. Due to money considerations, it was immpossible for me to change colleges. I feared at the time that this new process would hurt me, because I have never been one of those who has benefited from chance drawings. My name was not picked during this so-called lottery. You see, under the old guidelines the top 7% went straight into the program. I made the the top 5%, however my academic achievement under the new system means nothing. I was forced to compete for a spot with all applicants who scored above 70%.

Now please understand that I am well aware that some have many responsibilities outside of school. I am no different. I have someone who I care about very much who is an epileptic. She has never been under control. I have had many nights that I have spent in the ER rather than sleeping or studying. I have paid the price many times over to be where I am now. But I am getting close to fifty. And at this point, I am very emotionally tired. I really do fear that if I do not get in by the next semester, that I will not be able to finish my dream. I am very angry and dissapointed that this has happened to me. In fact, my longtime study partner was accepted and I cannot even talk to her because it upsets me knowing that she will be moving on without me. I do wish her the best but it is just too painful. But the thing that bothers me the most is that I am being told by this new process that my academic achievement means nothing.

I have to admit, that even though I am a man I broke down and cried.

I believe there is room for all types of selection processes in our state. But this new model is nothing but socialism. It rewards the many but penalizes those who achieve the most and some of us pay the ultimate cost. Please be aware that the Chancellor is trying to force this program on every single community college in the state.

I just do not know where I am going to go from here.

Zash

I am curious. Some of those who are just passing concern me. That is more than some are In my humble opinion could be a danger to the pt's. Now I also realize that some who have achieved a high level of academic excellance can also be a danger. I have very mixed feelings on this subject. Can you tell me your thoughts on this subject?

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I am proud person Lizz. And in a very real sense I am from the old school. An insructor of mine said to many of us one time "I do not grade on a curve, because in real life your are in competition with your peers". I believe that this is the way it should be. I do see some value to taking the steps you have mentioned, however I feel that at least for myself that I would being sacrificing a measure of my own pride to do so.

Why would you be sacrificing pride? To me, at least, it was a matter of pride to fight the system and try to make my grades count for something, whether it ultimately made any difference or not. I didn't work for that 4.0 GPA for nothing and, I let them know that.

:typing

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Why would you be sacrificing pride? To me, at least, it was a matter of pride to fight the system and try to make my grades count for something, whether it ultimately made any difference or not. I didn't work for that 4.0 GPA for nothing and, I let them know that.

:typing

You know Lizz, you are 100% right. It really is a matter of principle. And our grades should count for something. I need to re-think my thought process from time to time.

LIZZ

I am curious to hear your views on the question I asked Zash. How do you feel working side by side with those in Nursing school who are just passing? Do you feel that they will make a good nurse, ect. ?

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I am curious to hear your views on the question I asked Zash. How do you feel working side by side with those in Nursing school who are just passing? Do you feel that they will make a good nurse, ect. ?

Generally, I'd probably have to say no but there are all kinds of exceptions to that statement. There are cases where top students don't do that well clinically. And, even though I'm a pretty good student, I've done some really stupid things.

There can be a big difference between what you know from a book and how you apply it on the floor. That's why I started externing in addition to clinicals, so I could try to learn how to connect the two better with experience.

On the other hand, book knowledge also comes in really handy. Not too long ago a veteran nurse told me to ignore a patient's left sided chest pain because the heart is located on the right side. I don't know how well she did in school but, you would think she'd know where the heart is ... which is pretty basic.

I also seen really poor students step up to the challenge and make better grades. And other students have a lot more burdens than I do: kids, jobs, etc. So, who am I to judge? But, there's no escaping the fact that there's other people who barely pass who just don't put in any extra effort.

And, there are other students who are doing well but they still scare the hell out of you ... mostly because they're so arrogant and are convinced they know everything. We have a student who's like that and I'd be willing to bet she'll be the first to lose her license, even though she makes good grades ... because she is so arrogant it's scary.

:typing

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Specializes in Critical Care.
Zash

I am curious. Some of those who are just passing concern me. That is more than some are In my humble opinion could be a danger to the pt's. Now I also realize that some who have achieved a high level of academic excellance can also be a danger. I have very mixed feelings on this subject. Can you tell me your thoughts on this subject?

Generally speaking, the programs are difficult and the NCLEX a bear. IF you get past both, then you probably have the tools to learn to be a nurse. And nursing IS OJT training. Schools only arm you with the tools to learn to be a nurse, they don't make you one outright. That's supposedly is why there are skill mixes on most units, even though those mixes seem to be moving younger and younger.

But, instead of a doc residency, nurses have an OJT residency.

This goes back to my assertion that entry requirements for programs are basically irrelevant to how good a nurse you could be because the programs can drop anybody at will without cost to the programs.

UNTIL evaluating for a better candidate is a criteria for program success, that will likely not change.

From a professional point of view, better candidates equal a better cadre of nurses, generally. I'm not sure I would put all my eggs in a purely academic evaluation of who is a better candidate.

But, I trust THAT criteria much more then a lottery.

The thing is, what makes a 'better nurse' is a very individual qualification. I directly fault the Ivory Tower for this. There is so very little clear direction and teaching on evidenced based critical thinking that those that DO put it all together come from a variety of backgrounds. For some, the intelligence that comes from book learning directly translates; for other 'book learners', the lack of structure involved w/ critical thinking is their undoing. Likewise, the 'horse sense' of some students can pull them through, but for others that vest their learning in common sense, the lack of structure from a solid educational foundation sets THEM up to fail.

If that makes sense.

~faith,

Timothy.

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Tim, nothing sucks more than the lottery system for the reasons that you described. But I think you've been misinformed about the Chancellor's Model. It isn't lottery based, it's grade based. The only inputs the school can vary are the pre-req courses and the cut score. I have a copy of the statistical model used to compute the applicant's score. It's also posted on San Joaquim Delta College's RN website at Delta College Health Sciences: ADN Program (on the left under "Acceptance Formula"). Delta was one of the test sites selected for early adoption of the model. I have decent grades (3.7 pre-reqs, 3.4 overall), and I got in for spring '07 with an 86. With your grades, you should end up with an even higher score (90+). And starting in fall 2007, any California Community College which accepts money from the state has to use the Model for its Nursing program. So next fall you'll be in. In the mean time, call up the school and find out where you are on the alternate list. You could be next in line for a call from admissions. Whether its spring or next fall you're almost there.

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Tim, nothing sucks more than the lottery system for the reasons that you described. But I think you've been misinformed about the Chancellor's Model. It isn't lottery based, it's grade based. The only inputs the school can vary are the pre-req courses and the cut score. I have a copy of the statistical model used to compute the applicant's score. It's also posted on San Joaquim Delta College's RN website at Delta College Health Sciences: ADN Program (on the left under "Acceptance Formula"). Delta was one of the test sites selected for early adoption of the model. I have decent grades (3.7 pre-reqs, 3.4 overall), and I got in for spring '07 with an 86. With your grades, you should end up with an even higher score (90+). And starting in fall 2007, any California Community College which accepts money from the state has to use the Model for its Nursing program. So next fall you'll be in. In the mean time, call up the school and find out where you are on the alternate list. You could be next in line for a call from admissions. Whether its spring or next fall you're almost there.

Well i have to disagree with you. The chancellor;s model is only grade based as far as the cut score, at least that's how it is being presented at MJC.Some People with a score of 75 got in this semester. They had only applied in the fall for their first time. Now Stockton's system is grade based.If my transportation was not so bad I would have applied their also. And I am well aware of it. I used their formula one night to compute my own raw score.

What is being presented at MJC is not what is presented on SJDC's web site. However I am interested on why you believe it is the same.

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it seems i am not the only one in modesto that is unhappy with this selection process. following is a letter to the editor of our local paper. i believe i know this girl. she is very capable and would be asset to any nursing staff.

last updated: december 14, 2006, 05:15:26 am pst

i find it ridiculous that a large institute such as modesto junior college only offers one nursing class a semester.

i am an emergency room technician trying to become a nurse. for the fall semester, i was 44th on the waiting list; others

who have been waiting longer were behind me. some, like me, teach nursing students how to do their jobs. now i am

84th on the waiting list. with more than six years experience in the medical field, i cannot get into the program.

there are shortages in the nursing field and not very many deserving people can get in. at some schools, unless you live

in their community you are told not to apply. how fair is that? we need more classes, not fewer.

lara kelly

modesto

i was wondering if there are any groups fighting this selection process or is this a david vs goliath type of scenario? it just seems like some group somewhere should be doing something! if any one knows of such a group, please let me know.

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it seems i am not the only one in modesto that is unhappy with this selection process. following is a letter to the editor of our local paper. i believe i know this girl. she is very capable and would be asset to any nursing staff.

last updated: december 14, 2006, 05:15:26 am pst

i find it ridiculous that a large institute such as modesto junior college only offers one nursing class a semester.

i am an emergency room technician trying to become a nurse. for the fall semester, i was 44th on the waiting list; others

who have been waiting longer were behind me. some, like me, teach nursing students how to do their jobs. now i am

84th on the waiting list. with more than six years experience in the medical field, i cannot get into the program.

there are shortages in the nursing field and not very many deserving people can get in. at some schools, unless you live

in their community you are told not to apply. how fair is that? we need more classes, not fewer.

lara kelly

modesto

i was wondering if there are any groups fighting this selection process or is this a david vs goliath type of scenario? it just seems like some group somewhere should be doing something! if any one knows of such a group, please let me know.

hello tim,

i am a male student also looking to get into the nursing program at mjc. i really do not mean to offend but, my question is why are you trying to change something that has been in place for a long time? you don't have to apply at mjc. i am wondering where did you apply to the first time that changed their selection process on you? because i know for a fact that mjc has had the lottery for quite a few years now, my wife is an rn and graduated from mjc almost a year ago and she had to go through the lottery as well. just wondering why make a big deal out of something that is not worth making a big deal over. i really respect you for the job you are trying to pursue, but there are plenty of other places that don't have a lottery system, but they also have a few years on the wait list as well, so just take what you can get is all im saying.

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I had to read your post over and I am glad I did. The timeframe you talk about them changing the selection process is just about right. I have been there for a little over three years and it was sometime in my second semester that it changed. Please understand That it took me longer because I was not always able to attend full time due to the sickness of my close friend and roomate. I had already comimtted myself at the time and with my money situation it was immpossible to "Just Move" as you put it. If I was the only one I had to think about, I would sought a different school. Sometimes your choices are very limited. UNderstand I do think this is a big deal. Anytime you put a honors student on equal basis with someone who has just squeaked by with a 75% in competition for a place in a nursing school, that is to someone like me a very big deal. And to make matters worse, this is a private lottery without any public oversight. You might disagree with how I feel about it, but I do find this system unfair. Merit should be what counts and merit only.

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Hello Tim,

I am a male student also looking to get into the nursing program at MJC. I really do not mean to offend but, my question is why are you trying to change something that has been in place for a long time? You don't have to apply at MJC. I am wondering where did you apply to the first time that changed their selection process on you? Because I know for a fact that MJC has had the lottery for quite a few years now, my wife is an RN and graduated from MJC almost a year ago and she had to go through the lottery as well. Just wondering why make a big deal out of something that is not worth making a big deal over. I really respect you for the job you are trying to pursue, but there are plenty of other places that don't have a lottery system, but they also have a few years on the wait list as well, so just take what you can get is all Im saying.

OH and Focker

I took the time to read your other postings. One of the basic qualities that a nurse should have are sense of compassion and tact. You were a little more tactful in your posting to me, but I think you still have room for improvement. Good Luck to you.

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Anytime you put a honors student on equal basis with someone who has just squeaked by with a 75% in competition for a place in a nursing school, that is to someone like me a very big deal. And to make matters worse, this is a private lottery without any public oversight. You might disagree with how I feel about it, but I do find this system unfair. Merit should be what counts and merit only.

Believe me Tim, I agree with you totally. There is no question that you are totally right about this. You have every right to feel the way you do. I am on your side, but Focker has a point in one sense.

If you're expecting nursing school to be fair, it just isn't. The unfairness is not going to stop here. You are going to see many unfair things as you go through the program. They are the gatekeepers and they can pretty much do what they want.

Probably the most unfair thing I dealt with was the teachers testing us on material they never gave us. It drove me absolutely crazy.

Finally, I realized that I had to quit spending time and energy complaining and trying to fight it by challenging test questions, etc., and spend more of my energy figuring out how to beat the teachers at the their own game.

So I started to study NCLEX guides in addition to the books, lecture and everything else to try to fill in the gaps, and it helped me a lot. I also figured out that I should always get notes from the previous class since, inevitably, teachers would forget to tell us things they told other classes but, nevertheless, would show up on test questions.

In hindsight, I realized that if I had done all of this a lot sooner, instead of worrying about how unfair it all was, I would have been much better off.

Again, I am not dismissing your arguments or how you feel. I totally sympathize with what's happened to you here. But, sometimes it's just better to accept the unfairness of the situation, especially if you can't change it, and deal with it the best that you can.

If I may make a suggestion here: the best thing you can do right now is start studying with the free time you have because you won't have much free time once school starts. If you can, get the syllabus for the program either from the school itself or your friend who's starting now.

You mentioned you're having some trouble talking with your friend right now because they're starting before you are but ... if you can set aside your personal feelings ... you might realize that having a friend in the class before you can also be a tremendous advantage.

I had a friend who started before me, and she was a lifesaver. She always told me what to expect from different teachers, how to study, what kinds of test questions to expect ... all kinds of pointers ... which helped me tremendously because she had already been through it. She also gave me notes from her classes which was enormously helpful.

I guess what I'm saying is: try to take advantage of an otherwise bad situation. You now have an opportunity to get a head start and that can give you an enormous advantage down the line.

:typing

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