Columbia University ETP Program 2013

PNPhopeful · Nov 23, 2012

Morgan, yes please =)

nurseywannabe · Nov 24, 2012

Hi ETP 2013 hopefuls!

So I'm a current ETP student and wanted to tell you guys about my perspective on the program. I know that about this time last year, I was Googling "Columbia ETP reviews" with no dice. Although the info sessions and the website are pretty good at telling you about the logistical details of being a Columbia nursing student, I thought it might help you "color in" the details if you heard firsthand from a student what to expect.

Going in to the program, I expected a very rigorous, social life-ruining year of non-stop studying. Well, I was right on on all of those counts. There are a lot of classes, some not as hard as others, but all requiring dedication and attention. But you guys are applying to an Ivy League school. You know that. Just keep it in mind. It's not so much that the material is difficult, but the sheer amount of time you will spend in classes, or doing assignments, or studying for exams. (Of which there are roughly 2-3 per week, every week.) For me, this is not a negative aspect of the program. It is to be expected, and it's for a short period of time.

Other non-negatives? Your classmates will be out of this world. I love the nursing ladies (and gents). You'll be going to school in NYC. You have the resources of Columbia University available to you (with the caveat that you will probably not take advantage of them because who wants to go to ANOTHER lecture this week, no matter which luminary is speaking?) You will get to do clinical rotations in some of the best hospitals in the nation. (More on this later.) You will graduate with a very impressive name on your resume.

Now, for the negatives. Going in I had heard a few complaints of disorganization from previous students, but being dead-set on being a Columbia nurse, I figured, “Eh. Bureaucracy. Whaddya expect?” Now that I’ve been a student for six months though, let me tell you. It’s not really that the program is disorganized (believe me, they will tell you where you need to be and when), but that it achieves at a level lower than you might expect for such a big name (and pricey!) school.

Examples? Our handbook for the program, our exams, our emails from administration, are rife with misspellings. I know, I know, no big deal. But when you are paying roughly 100k for a program, you expect perfection. And that brings me to the faculty. A very small handful of the professors are GREAT. By small handful, I mean one. The rest rely solely on non-engaging Powerpoints. Outside of the classroom, you will have clinical instructors, who are not professors at Columbia. These are nurses from the community, hired into the role of clinical instructor, who will see you through your various rotations. When I say these are a mixed bag, believe it. Some of them are nurses at whose feet I bow down, others are burnt out staff nurses who took the job to have two days a week where they can do nothing. Also, the rotations are heavily influenced by the ACTUAL nurses on the floor. If they don't like your instructor, then they don't like you, and you will not learn from them. If they do like him/her, you may have some enlightening conversations with the staff nurses. But you see how there are no guarantees in this type of situation.

And let’s talk about doing nothing. PLEASE understand that in nursing school, you WILL NOT be administering medications, starting IVs, changing dressings, cleaning PEG tubes, or practicing any other relevant nursing skill. Though you may see it once or twice at the bedside or in lab, you will not be permitted to do these things and will be told, “You’ll learn that when you get a job.” You will not learn how to deal with an airway emergency, or even what to do first in the event of a code. Your primary job in clinical rotations is to look up your patient's meds, read their chart, fill their water, and change them. Important work, to be sure (I was a CNA for years, and I loved it.) But you will go through this program feeling woefully unprepared for actual nursing work.

What DO you learn in nursing school? How to communicate with patients. Theories of nursing. How to communicate with patients. Community health nursing. How to communicate with patients. Also, communication with patients.

This is not specific to Columbia, of course. But know it.

In regards to the NP portion, most of the programs suggest that you work. Recently, in an acute care meeting, the director suggested that the idea of going straight through to become an Acute Care NP is “a waste of time”, because no one will hire an NP without nursing experience. This is the consensus across the board; I have heard this comment from doctors and nurses throughout my clinicals. So keep in mind, you will do your ETP year, and barring a willingness to move to Texas or Alaska to get an NP job for $80,000 a year (which will not cover your loans), you must work as a staff nurse either before or while you earn your NP. Functionally, the programs are completely separate. You do not meet or work with your NP director at all during ETP. So functionally, you are considering paying $75-100k for 12 months of nursing school. Plain old boring nursing school.

Also, be aware that in lieu of a community health nursing rotation, you will be required to come up with a project to implement at any non-profit agency in NYC, and to do that for 60 hours. The time is not built into your schedule. It is a rotation that is assigned to you, to do on your free time. Many students have found this difficult to do.

Listen, it IS your choice. Columbia is a nice name to have on your resume. And I can’t wait to have it on mine. But if I could go back, I would. I’d go to an accelerated program at a state school, and then go to Columbia for my Master’s. Columbia offers nothing for basic nursing school that other schools don’t have. The labs are NOT state of the art, the rotation’s usefulness heavily depends on your instructor, the books are the same as other school’s, the powerpoints are the same, and the work is the same. There is no magic at work here. Just a very excellent marketing program covering up a very mediocre program.

For as much debt as you’re considering getting in to, I would really stop and think about it. Columbia will always be there, with its excellent Master’s programs and its resources and its hospitals. And I would pick up my pom-poms and cheer you into submitting an application for the NP programs. But as far as nursing school goes, (which is all ETP is, friends, really), you might reconsider. Even if comparable programs are a bit longer, you will be saving money. Considering the fact that last year’s ETP grads are still looking for work, it is important you look forward to your world in roughly 18 months when you are done with ETP, heavily in debt, with no bedside experience, and a new grad resume.

Is Columbia worth it? Just as much as nursing school anywhere is worth it. It's a school. Not a magic palace of nursing education. It is a mediocre nursing school with a heart-stopping price tag. Find a better program, and come back for your NP. Two cents given.

samdaman · Nov 24, 2012

Wow, thanks for the long and detailed explanation. An FNP I shadowed told me that it's a good idea to work as an RN for at least 3-4 years to get enough experience to be a competent FNP. Hopefully when I finish all my school in about 4 years all the old nurses will finally go back into retirement so that jobs for us will open up. Also hope that the economy picks up and Obamacare gets figured out so that hospitals and such start hiring to handle the influx of ailing/retiring baby boomers.

CU2012 · Nov 24, 2012

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!

While I would agree with nurseywannabe on many of his/her points, I do disagree with a couple things; an important one is about the professors. I know exactly which prof nurseywannabe is talking about being great (because everyone lurvs her!) but I actually think that most of my professors have been very good teachers, with the exception being the couple that have been really not good.

The other thing is that while we are not allowed to administer meds or do anything involving blood (start IVs, do finger sticks) by NYP policy, I have done things like clean PEG tubes, change dressings, remove foley catheters, etc. in the clinical setting numerous times. I think this just speaks to my earlier point about a large class meaning a wide variety of clinical placements (read: some awesome, some not awesome).

While I definitely agree that there are areas where the program should be improved, I really disagree that this is a mediocre program - I definitely feel that I am being well educated and having great clinical experiences, and I don't regret the decision at all to come to Columbia over the other schools to which I was admitted.

lotr · Nov 25, 2012

Thanks so much to the current ETPers for sharing their experience and perspective on the current program. Nurseywannabe, you indicated that the labs at Columbia are not state of the art. I have heard that NYU's program has state of the art simulation labs with mannikins (4 adults, 2 newborns, a 5 year old and one that gives birth!) and that students spend 50% of their clinical time in simulation labs and the other 50% at onsite clinicals. In the simulation labs, I believe the students roleplay being the nurse, assessing the patient and performing procedures, and then get feedback and are able to reflect on what they learned and how they could improve.

Can the current ETPers comment on what Columbia offers in the way of simulation labs? How would you compare the learning experience of onsite clinicals versus simulation labs?

samdaman · Nov 25, 2012

So when do we actually learn how to administer IVs and stuff involving blood then? I always thought that's what we're supposed to learn in nursing school!

LookingAhead · Nov 25, 2012

In terms of labs: you start in the lab during the first summer, one day a week, in which you learn basic nursing skills like clean vs sterile technique, suctioning, cleaning wounds and trachs, inserting/removing foleys, etc. you will return to the lab after the summer once per clinical rotation to practice these same skills.Nurseywannabe is totally right in saying that the school's lab facilities are not currently state of the art - what this means is that there is not enough lab space and the mannequins/machines are not the newest. The school is about to break ground on an enirely new nursing school building a couple blocks from the present nursing school; much of this new building will be lab and simulation space, but it won't be complete until 2015.

LookingAhead · Nov 25, 2012

Oh and in terms of how lab compares to clinical: in my opinion, lab is nothing compared to clinical. It's a good safe space to practice skills and receive feedback, and it certainly has its place in a learning environment-- but no dummy, no matter how sophisticated, compares to doing a skill on a real patient.

nurseywannabe · Nov 25, 2012

Hey all! Glad to see prospective students considering their options!

As LookingAhead said, you go the lab in summer, where you see and try different basic med-surg nursing skills. After summer, you go back for a med-surg refresher, and then once each rotation after that. The labs are not state of the art, so we are in agreement on that. In the lab you will learn how to insert a Foley, suction a trach, then get to try it on the dummy. Things like assessing pressure sores, NG tubes, and wound dressing with a wound vac are actually only demonstrated to you by an instructor, the materials are expensive and it would take too long to do it any other way. I really think the point of the lab is just to get comfortable with the materials and the general technique. You don't go enough times to master anything, and you won't master it until you are a working nurse. But at least you'll know what the damn Foley looks like!

The mannikins need some serious love. Mannequins? I don't know how to spell it. There are rumors that there will be a new lab, which would be great for future students.

Again, like I said, it's nursing school. It's not an excellent nursing school. Columbia is a pro at education, but my opinion is that nursing is not its strong suit. Just remember that ETP is really just 2 programs, both of which you're accepted to. Nursing school, and nurse practitioner school. It's not integrated, and when you realize that, you realize that it is, in my opinion, a huge amount of money to spend. Your choice to make is, is 11 months of nursing school worth 100k. Based on my experience of the program, I would urge you to look elsewhere.

Also for samdaman: If you possess critical thinking skills and have worked as a nursing assistant or patient care tech, you've done nursing school clinical. Blood draws and IVs are for certified staff only. You'll learn it when you start. And we don't do it in lab, which I find strange. Maybe we will later? Who knows.

LookingAhead · Nov 25, 2012

Things like assessing pressure sores, NG tubes, and wound dressing with a wound vac are actually only demonstrated to you by an instructor, the materials are expensive and it would take too long to do it any other way.

That's really strange, nurseywannabe - the group I was in for lab did all of these things ourselves...

There are rumors that there will be a new lab, which would be great for future students.

It's actually true! I went to a talk by the Dean where she showed us all the architectural plans and laid out the timeline for the new building. Just sayin. :)

Med Surg RN, BSN, RN · Nov 26, 2012

hey itnn123, did you apply to both NYU and Columbia? Have you heard back from NYU? I was accepted to NYU but wish I knew what Columbia's decision was as well before I moved fwd.

Med Surg RN, BSN, RN · Nov 26, 2012

you're probably right Steve but i think i will wait a little bit before i submit my deposit. i just want to make sure i am doing the right things. it's such a big step!