What would happen if someone accepted an offer from a hospital, anesthesia groups ect

[Roland]

to PAY for their tuition in exchange for a contract to work at their organization/facility and then decided or was not able to do so (for either a good or bad reason)? Wouldn't this amount to a simple "breech of contract"? Thus, the grants would in essence become loans which had to be paid back perhaps with interest, and maybe even some damages (although that would be difficult for the plantiff to prove). Wouldn't this be a possible option for someone who couldn't afford school on Stafford loans alone, and didnt' qualify for whatever reason for the private "Bank One" type loans? Even if the loaner required the "loanee" to sign a non compete agreement in exchange for the grant, these are usually not enforceable outside of a very limited geographical area. Furthermore, as I have pointed out before private debts (including most court judgements) are USUALLY dischargeable in Chapter Seven proceedings while student loans USUALLY are not (the common exception being in the case of permanent disability, and even then the Dept. of Education must "sign off" on the discharge which is not lock).

What are the "downsides" to this analysis for someone in this position (which for the record doesn't include myself). I am not advocating this approach, but consider it to be a worthy intellectual exercise since it is a situation which has likely occured before and probably will again in various locales around this crazy world! To those who are still offended at the very concept being discussed I would quote Aristotle who said that "it is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

[canoehead, BSN, RN]

Great analogy Gwenith.

If the guy doing the spouting off is in a public area you can't very well tell him to leave unless he hurts someone, but you CAN give him a few pointed hints about how he's not doing himself any favors.

The next question is...in a few years, when he has come out of school, would you be more or less inclined to hire him?

[kmchugh]

Roland

I've tried a few different ways to tell you something, hoping you'd catch my drift. You haven't. I'm going to try one more time. This time, I'll just be blunt.

You are clearly a smart guy. I've read your posts, you are no dummy. That's good, it will serve you well in nursing school, and on to anesthesia school. So far, so good. Now, listen to someone who has walked the path you profess to want to follow.

Sometimes, you are too smart. You come up with a question, and we answer it. If the answer isn't what you wanted, you press the point. You need to understand that what comes across, whether you intend it or not, isn't that you genuinely desire an answer. What comes across is that you already know what the answer is, and we just aren't brilliant enough, as you are, to get it. You come across as a know-it-all. Go back and read your thread about the "national anesthesia games." If you can read it dispassionately, you will see exactly what I am saying.

Believe me, that's not just going to hurt you, it could kill you professionally. And it might do so long before you even get the chance to apply to anesthesia school. All it takes is one clinical instructor in nursing school to decide you can't take instruction, and you are done. You can get straight A's in nursing school, and still flunk out if a clinical instructor thinks you are not safe. And even if you get back into nursing school, dreams of becoming a CRNA are gone if you flunked out of nursing school once.

But suppose that doesn't happen. It can still come back to bite you later. I've said, this is a small field. Your reputation, which you are starting to build on this bulletin board, can proceed you. It is entirely possible, even with the most stellar recommendations and a 4.0 GPA from nursing school, for you not to be accepted into a CRNA program. All it takes is for the director to say you performed poorly on the interview. "Sorry, try again next year." And your rep has caught up with you.

Finally, and the scenario I think most likely to kill you, is what can happen in clinicals while in CRNA school. In clinicals, you will work daily with MDA's and CRNA's. Some will be smarter than you, some won't be as smart. But they all have one thing you don't: The certification. They have finished. I have worked with student CRNA's, and I really enjoy it. But, if you copped the attitude with me in clinicals that I am picking up from you here, I'd tell you you were done, fail you for the day, and send you home. You are not safe, you are not amenable to instruction, and I have no desire to debate with you. Then I'd call your school director and let them know what I had done, and why. I'd also tell your director that I had no future desire to work with you. Have this happen once or twice, and you will be out of CRNA school. I didn't even cop the attitude you do in school, and it still damn near happened to me. In my second month of clinicals, I didn't understand that the CRNA student was fair game to be picked on but could not pick back. I wasn't even arguing with anyone, I thought I was just joining in the fun.

Don't come back and try to tell me that "how I act here won't be how I act in school." People can't help but be what they are. And, remember, your reputation preceeds you. If you showed up tomorrow to work with me as a student, I'd already have a shorter fuse to give you a bad grade, based solely on our interactions here on the board. Is that fair? Probably not, but it is reality.

None of this is meant to flame you in any way. I am where you say you want to be, and my experience along the way makes it very easy to see what kind of a bed you are making for yourself. Consider this no more than a word to the wise. A last word to the wise.

Kevin McHugh, CRNA

[nilepoc]

Bravo Kevin

[Roland]

Kevin, you very well may be right. In fact similiar advice that you gave me some time ago actually caused me to develop my "plan B" and let my wife become a CRNA, and be a stay at home father homeschooling my son (maybe picking up a few shifts as an RN if I get through that program). Unless you think that schools or jobs would hold my wife to account for MY opinions (which would be like not hiring a woman because her husband happened to be a bum or bully an approach I think most would agree is not right). She actually told me that the only way she would go back to nursing school was if I didn't attend the same school and never worked at the same place because she was convinced that I would say something that would cause both of us to be expelled or fired. In fact she told me several years ago that she WILL leave me the day our son turns eighteen and that there is nothing I can do to change her mind, and when she says this she comes across so coldly sincere that it literally sends shivers up my spine (largely because I made similiar "controversial" posts on a mortgage board two days before our son was born which ultimately caused her to lose her biggest referring REALTOR client the very day my son WAS born. All of this occured after she had previously begged me in tears to stop posting, which I promised I would but didn't).

Also, I KNOW that I'm NOT exceptionally bright! I usually score around 115-120 on standard intelligence tests. My wife routinely scores twenty to thirty points higher than me on the same tests. However, I do work really hard to stay informed. Look the bottom line is that I DO try to be provacative, but in a good sense. I want to get people to think about issues, and face perspectives that MAY make them uncomfortable. A good film director like Mel Gibson or Martn Scorsese often "provoke" their audience to get across the point they are trying to make (Passion of Christ, and Taxi cab driver are two good examples of this). Here, I may sometimes engage in "intellectual provacation", but I never make personal, religious, or racial attacks on anyone. What exactly have I said that warrants three staff members rebuking me (and one actually warning me in an official sense. Okay, Gwenith almost always disagrees with me and has often accused me of not being sincere. I think she honestly finds many of my views to be so shocking that she thinks that no one could really sincerely posess them.) It is my hope that this approach will generate interesting "conversations" where everyone benefits. In this very thread I have learned a great deal about the orginal subject posted (easily more than I knew to begin with). Frankly folks I'm torn. On one hand the part of me that "wants to live by Kevin's quote" says be true to your opinions "whatever the consequences may be." The other part that wants to have a nice life, family, and career, says "hey dude, tell me how it worth it for some abstract ideal that even YOU are not certain of. Keep it up and your self described "Socratic behind" is going to be handed a supersized, cup of hemlock to drink" Look the truth is that the people on this board are the closest things to real friends that I have (since in addition to my other hang ups I have the social skills of Sam on The Apprentice). Frankly, between work and school I seldom even see my wife and kid while they are still awake! Thus, it makes sense that I should go back to "lurking" as I did for much of the last year and a half rather than further endangering my situation. This will enable me to continue to gather the knowledge and insights that may benefit me and my family in our nursing careers. Furthermore, I will try to limit posts to those issues that I feel are necessary to directly answer questions that I NEED answered, but cannot find solutions to elsewhere. In the end I just want to live in Hawaii, surf, look at the stars, watch my kid grow up to be happy, and maybe, just maybe have a boat to explore the South Pacific with which may just make my coming state of "being totally alone" a little more tolerable.

Now that I've made myself completely depressed I going to put off my final "hardcore diet and exercise program to end all diets and exercise programs" one more day and have a big bowel of birthday cake and ice cream!

Tommorow, I will get to work trying to lose weight, eat right and get my 145/100 blood pressure down to non, impending John Ritter aortic rupture levels.

[kmchugh]

Roland

If everything in your last post was true, then there are a couple more things I need to tell you. Again, no flames, just info based on what you tell me.

Look at the history you have given us. I know you believe that you are just trying to spark interesting conversation. The problem, at least as far as this board is concerned, is that you don't have sufficient information or experience to spark that kind of conversation on a professional level.

But that isn't even the real problem. What you have described seems to me to be a long, persistant history of self destructive behavior. I can say that with a relatively high degree of confidence, because my ex-wife was self destructive. After 14 years of it, I got fed up and left. A year later, she killed herself. So, I'm pretty good a spotting self destructive behavior.

As far as your wife is concerned, I don't really think what you post here would hurt her, but I couldn't absolutely guarantee that. But at this point, it's really you that I'm more concerned with.

Let me, as gently as I can, recommend to you that you seek counseling. Try and figure out why you are implosive, or barring that, how you can recognize and stop self destructive behavior. Again, this is friendly advice, you are free to follow or not. But be aware of what you are doing to yourself.

Kevin McHugh

[CRHSrn]

WOW ... :chair:

[WntrMute2]

She actually told me that the only way she would go back to nursing school was if I didn't attend the same school and never worked at the same place because she was convinced that I would say something that would cause both of us to be expelled or fired. In fact she told me several years ago that she WILL leave me the day our son turns eighteen and that there is nothing I can do to change her mind, and when she says this she comes across so coldly sincere that it literally sends shivers up my spine (largely because I made similiar "controversial" posts on a mortgage board two days before our son was born which ultimately caused her to lose her biggest referring REALTOR client the very day my son WAS born. All of this occured after she had previously begged me in tears to stop posting, which I promised I would but didn't).

Also, I KNOW that I'm NOT exceptionally bright! .

I don't mean this as harsh as it is going to come across but I've got to say Roland that you seem like you're a slow learner

[futuregaspasser]

I think of the times when CEO's offered carrot rewards to me as a nurse. or when the CEO or Manger comes by and they "act" like they really know who you or care about you. ( I am not getting mushy, I am trying to paint a picture) Well all that fluff: the barbeque, the turkey for christmas, the new bag with the hospital logo on it....

Alan, as I read this I thought "Does he work at my hospital?" Then I noticed your location, and though I won't mention any names, there is one major provider here, and I think we both work (or worked) for the same one.

[alansmith52]

Roland,

bless your heart this is a hard lesson to learn.

I just learned it my self.

often I think we sit at our desks and have fun in this cyber world. taking no thought for real life. fortuneantly or unfortuneantly as the case may be. The chasm between cyber play and real life is smaller than you know in this case. Nilepoc spoke about degrees of seperation and how small the anesthesia community is. Its real. I didn't think I would ever actually meet anyone on this board in REAL life. but I did and have many times now. some are in my class at school. I Actually met YogaCRNA at a meeting. we arn't even from the same state. what if you go to the national CRNA meeting and you meet Nilepoc. We all know his name. I am sure he'll be standing right by his poster. at that moment your face must match up with everything you've written on this board. Will you be comfortable in your skin?

for example I know that those whom I meet will know I cant spell. ( I can, I just type fast, its my own excuse) I am comfortable with that. All I am saying is, these last few experinces has caused me to think twice about what I write. not that you cant write how you feel. but you need to use your EQ rather than your IQ some cases.

how many CRNA boards are there out there? not many.

[Roland]

All I can say is that if I made it so far as one of those meetings I would raise the same sort of topics for discussion as I do here (although by then I would know more about anesthesia so that new questions would occur). I have been criticised since almost the first grade for asking too many questions that some people felt were "stupid" (in the language of that time). Even with the incident involving my wife, I was only writing a post about the political ramifications of a potential Gore administration for the mortgage industry (and the client she lost was a big time local Democrat). My failing in that case was making and then violating my promise to her not post controversial subjects.

My point is that if you are going to speak your "mind" on subjects then you must be willing to bare the consequences of unpopular opinions. I don't regret any of the questions posted here because they were all subjects that legitimately interested me, and which I think were worthy of discussion. Wintermute suggested that I am a "slow learner" and perhaps he is correct. I like to think however that I care more about free, intellectual inquiry and the discussions that it can generate than I do "material" rewards that ensue from properly "playing the game". Also, for the record I think that Nileproc especially sticks to "the argument" when he has a problem with one of my positions. Thus, if I posted: "What would likely occur if someone jumped off the San Francisco Bay bridge wearing high heels to break the surface tension of the water." He would likely respond with something like "that wouldn't be a good idea because the impact would still be too great, and even if you survived the fall you would likely drown or succumb to sharks and or hypothermia." Others would say something along the line "what the heck is wrong with you, I just can't believe someone would ask such a question ect." Now to that person it may just be a stupid question, but to the guys on Discovery channel's MythBusters or perhaps David Blaine (or someone who finds himself working on high bridges without a safety line) it is a very relevent question!

That said, I think that Kevin's criticisms reflect a sincere concern for my well being and are a credit to his character (even if I disagree in principal with some of his positions especially that the opinions of the highly educated and elite are of more intrinsic value to the exclusion of those not as educated and experienced. In fact, I think that this majority viewpoint actually impedes scientific progress since it discourages scientists and people in general from offering opinions outside their fields of specialty.) On the other hand I can't recall a single instance that Wintermute has had anything good to say about anything that I've ever posted. That's OKAY not everyone "meshes" and in fact some people tend by their very nature's to "grate" upon one another. The bottom line is that should I make it so far as to graduate from a CRNA program (and even I have always said that it is probably an extremely remote long shot, but never the less one that I have dedicated our lives towards) and attend a conference you would probably quickly figure out who I was by my distinct nature (although my wife would probably leave if I was recognized because she doesn't share my convictions on the issue).

[WntrMute2]

I have been criticised since almost the first grade for asking too many questions that some people felt were "stupid" (in the language of that time). Even with the incident involving my wife, I was only writing a post about the political ramifications of a potential Gore administration for the mortgage industry (and the client she lost was a big time local Democrat). My point is that if you are going to speak your "mind" on subjects then you must be willing to bare the consequences of unpopular opinions. I don't regret any of the questions posted here because they were all subjects that legitimately interested me, and which I think were worthy of discussion. Wintermute suggested that I am a "slow learner" and perhaps he is correct. I like to think however that I care more about free, intellectual inquiry and the discussions that it can generate than I do "material" rewards that ensue from properly "playing the game".

On the other hand I can't recall a single instance that Wintermute has had anything good to say about anything that I've ever posted.

Well, Roland 2 points in response. 1) I can't recall you ever accepting anyones' criticism of your ideas as having merit. Give me one example where you publically took someones advice here in this forum and I'll admit that the slow learner remark isn't accurate.

2) I don't see where this intellect of yours is getting you. Over and over again in posts, as well as in your CP, you state the goal for you (or your wife)is to become a CRNA, yet, you have defeated yourself by your own admission with your unwillingness to just listen to others' advice and your need to provoke. Even if you succede in forcing your wife to become a CRNA, she is leaving you in the near future, dening you even that success.

[Roland]

The point is Wintermute that I have never criticised you or anyone else personally. On the other hand I have been the subject of criticism on many occasions primarily for my opinions. The vast majority of my posts are very mundane, and unfortunately not very provacative (provacative is often thought of as a GOOD thing in the right context. I would submit that people like Ralph Nader, Neil Borst, Glenn Beck, and the ACLU are often provacative in a good sense while Howard Stern is often so in a negative, obscene manner, and no one has accused me of being obscene at least to this point). In reply to your challenge to demonstrate that I have accepted criticism in the past, I offered above an example of developing my "plan B" in response to Kevin's observations that I wouldn't make it through CRNA school. Also, in the final analysis I think that my wife loves me and WON'T ultimately leave me (she is very OLD SCHOOL on marriage despite her pronouncements). I could of course be wrong, but it doesn't change my opinions (at least if we move to a community property state I will be entitled to half her assets when she leaves and maybe even support if we move to California!) Also, Wintermute, please note above where I concede that your opinions of my being a "slow learner" may in fact be correct. However, I offered an alternative explanation for my views, which you are free to either accept or reject.

In the final analysis I challenge anyone to honestly conclude that the subject of SRNA's reneging on contracts is not a subject worthy of discussion. This thread offered multiple accounts that this is not rare, and is perhaps commonplace. Whether or not you find this to be reprehinsible behavior or not doesn't change the fact that it IS a relevant topic for discussion. Furthermore, if it cannot be discussed in a forum developed for the open, exchange of often divergent opinions about nursing (and in this case about CRNA's) one must ask where it CAN be debated. Please note also (as I have said several times now) that several potential solutions were offered to reduce this practice which would not exist in the "public areana of ideas", but for this post.