CEO's/Hosp.'s making millions off of our work:(

[sassyspot]

I've been a nurse for many years and have been through many nursing shortages (that's right history does indeed repeat itself over and over again). The one thing that all of these nursing shortages have in common is the fact that not once has the shortage resulted in bringing nurses together to form collective bargaining units to increase their wages. Each time this has happened the hospital organizations and thier investors and Ceo's have come out filthy rich. The nurses on the otherr hancdo not even see a decent increase in pay. This is sad, since these hospitals co function uld not without us! Maybe it's time for nurses to come to grips with their self esteem issues and seek help for professional organizing. These hospital Corp. do not care one bit to put you in a position of overwork, underpay and just sheer exhaustion- to the point that you become dangerous and then abandon you when you make a mistake. Theses organizations do not care who you are or what you do, as long as you are a warm body generating revenue for them. How many nurses have you heard of that make million dollar salaries for doing the work that we do? Maybe it's time for Nurse/Healthcare worker owned and operated facilities! Removing the greedy CEO's and boards of director would absolutely change the direction of our profession and institutions. After all these Corp. are Never to bi to fail and they couldn't even operate if we as a group would stick together. Our profession has tried all other options, why not try collective/group bargaining?:)

[No Stars In My Eyes]

Once upon a long ago time, when I first heard there was a BoN, I thought it was, while not exactly a union per se, an organization that stuck up FOR nurses. Then I learned it was to protect the public FROM nurses. What a rude shock to this innocent little nurse!

I've never had any experience with unions. My perception of unions, for a long time, came from the debacle at the Kentucky Coal Mines, and then years later NORMA RAE. In other words, and I am not ashamed to admit it, I am pretty ignorant on the matter. But I would be willing to bet there are a lot of folks out there just like me.

I don't know what I'd do if presented with the choice to unionize or not. I do know of a few CEO's who could benefit others more if their wings were clipped.

Is there any info out there that doesn't get all hopped up trying to persuade folks one way or the other, yet explains the pro's and con's? I'll be retiring one of these years, soon enough, and don't imagine I will be in the middle of a raging debate or have to worry about losing my job, but I am interested.....

[kbrn2002, ADN, RN]

I am in a SNF, so no union for nurses. The CNA's/housekeeping/kitchen do have a union. While I have never seen them as threatening brutes like what duskyjewel's mom went through I have see them as pretty darn useless. Union dues are paid and the union doesn't fight nearly hard enough for their members. No raise in 3 years, and when they did get one it was tiny. I have never seen them fight for a workers job even when the worker was fired for misconduct and it was later proven that no misconduct occurred. I can't believe that nobody questions where their considerable union dues are going, if it was me I'd sure like to know what the union was doing with my hard earned money.

[LoyalWeim]

PMFB-RN,

So let me get this straight. A fireman in California makes say $180,000/year but same fireman in Ohio makes say $100,000/year. The fireman in Ohio deserves to make $180,000/year simply because the one in California makes that much?... even though Ohio's local economy in no way would support that kind of pay? Or, are you saying that only RN's deserve to make the same everywhere in the US despite local and regional cost of living differences?

Oh, and you are saying the cost-of-living is just a lie or con-game? If what you are saying were actually plausible (which it is not), absolutely NOBODY would be in California as a nurse because they would move where that same amount of money goes much much much further.

Regards,

LW

[LoyalWeim]

TheCommuter,

Thanks for the input. I see what you are saying. I wonder this "glut" of nursing is really a "glut" of all jobs. I mean people are flocking to healthcare because it is the last industry standing (or growing)... for now. Well there is engineering which is still in decent demand but most choose not to pursue that career path.

Regards,

LW

[LoyalWeim]

PMFB-RN,

And just like you mention an experience about the bad cop, I listed an example of a major industry without a union that crushes all their competitors- SouthWest Airlines. And I will bet that some hospitals that are not unionized do have excellent benefits and safe/quality/fair conditions. Anyone out there work at a hospital that does not have a union and the job is awesome and fair? Or are we claiming that all hospital jobs that are not unionized suck because they fire people for no reason?

Thanks for the lively discussion!

LW

[PMFB-RN, RN]

So let me get this straight. A fireman in California makes say $180,000/year but same fireman in Ohio makes say $100,000/year. The fireman in Ohio deserves to make $180,000/year simply because the one in California makes that much?... even though Ohio's local economy in no way would support that kind of pay?

You answered your own question. Nurses are not firemen and hospitals don't get their money the same way fire departments do. If the fire departments in Ohio and California were both funded exactly the same way, and got the same amount per fire fighter, as the hospitals in Ohio and California are, why wouldn't fire fighter make the same? Where is all that money the fire department in Ohio takes in going to? They get to pay their fire fighters $80K/year less but are funded the same as the fire department in California. Who keeps that extra $80k/year per fire fighter? As a tax payer wouldn't you want to know?

r, are you saying that only RN's deserve to make the same everywhere in the US despite local and regional cost of living differences?

"Deserve" doesn't come into it and I didn't say that everyone should make the same no matter where they live / work. There are real differences that would account for variable pay rates in different areas. The COL for the worker isn't one of them.

Oh, and you are saying the cost-of-living is just a lie or con-game?

Seriously? No I am not saying that. I am fully aware that different area have different COL. I realize that is a fact.

If what you are saying were actually plausible (which it is not), absolutely NOBODY would be in California as a nurse because they would move where that same amount of money goes much much much further.

Clearly not true. People want to live in California. My home town of San Diego is a perfect example. The COL is high and nurse's pay is low. Nurses make less there than they do in Minneapolis where COL is MUCH lower. The reason for that is because so many people want to live in one of the best places in the country they will accept lower pay to live there.

[LoyalWeim]

"Seriously? No I am not saying that. I am fully aware that different area have different COL. I realize that is a fact."

But, on the previous post you said... and I quote: "No you are buying into the excuses to pay nurses less than what they should be paid. I am saying the COL is irrelevent and should NOT be taken into account when determining how much a nurse is paid. If a nurse in Central Ca can get paid $45 and hour so can a nurse in Kansas or anywhere else."

Nice double-speak. Seems that you can have it both ways? And for the record, I do not by into "No you are buying into the excuses to pay nurses less than what they should be paid" either. I am saying all professions and trades pay varies based on locale and COL. Nurses are absolutely no exception. You are oversimplifying the nurse-side based on a single variable- the cost of a procedure and how much is funded by the federal government. The reality is that many variables determine a persons pay and COL/local economy is a big one.

Ahhh... and here we go, "The reason for that is because so many people want to live in one of the best places in the country". See how easy this is? You voluntarily choose to work where you make less because you want to live there! So hospitals don't need to pay you more because they apparently have no need to so long as people chose to live there and make less money than other states. Seems that besides the high COL in CA, supply and demand fundamentals are also a big factor!

It is true that if there are a glut of nurses seeking the same position that this would act to suppress wages. This is one reason that engineers for example make very good money. There is far more demand than supply of engineers to meet it.

Maybe another factor affecting wages to Californians is this:

How San Diego avoided bankruptcy | UTSanDiego.com

A snippet from that article: "SAN DIEGO: Annual budget deficit peaked at $120 million in 2010. Slashed hours at libraries and recreation centers, eliminated more than 1,500 budgeted positions, made cuts to public safety and cut compensation by 6 percent for workers. Improved hotel and sales taxes have allowed some previous cuts to be restored this year. Still has a $2.2 billion pension deficit."

[LoyalWeim]

From: The best and worst states to be an RN in 2012 | Scrubs – The Leading Lifestyle Nursing Magazine Featuring Inspirational and Informational Nursing Articles | Page 5

"Where the nursing salary, cost of living and lifestyle equate to good living

Let’s talk about sunny California. It does seem to be calling RNs with its high salaries and expected job growth. Factor in that there’s a nursing shortage in the state, which also makes the job pickings pretty good.

But the bottom line is that the cost of living in California is well above the national average and the taxes are high, so unless your RN salary is at the high end, and you live in a double-income household with no children or maybe one or two children, making ends meet plus enjoying the great amenities that this beautiful state has to offer is a challenge.

This is the main reason people tend to flee California, even though they love it; it’s a hard place to “make a living.”"

[PMFB-RN, RN]

"Seriously? No I am not saying that. I am fully aware that different area have different COL. I realize that is a fact."

But, on the previous post you said... and I quote: "No you are buying into the excuses to pay nurses less than what they should be paid. I am saying the COL is irrelevent and should NOT be taken into account when determining how much a nurse is paid. If a nurse in Central Ca can get paid $45 and hour so can a nurse in Kansas or anywhere else."

Nice double-speak. Seems that you can have it both ways?

It's not double speak. You are failing to comprehend what has been written. I don't know why you don't understand.

I will try again. As a person who has lived in various parts of the country I understand that different area have higher and lower COL. OK? I do not deny the existence of higher and low COL areas.

OK so now I hope we can establish that, like any normal person, I can be aware of simple and evident truths.

Now I am also saying that the local COL should not be taken into account for nurses pay. It's not double speak. It's not trying to have it both ways. Understand now? Of course you are very welcome to disagree with me, I am just trying to get you to comprehend some basic points.

And for the record, I do not by into "No you are buying into the excuses to pay nurses less than what they should be paid" either. I am saying all professions and trades pay varies based on locale and COL.

Except they don't. Health care is different. You keep attempting to compare nurses with unrelated fields. If providers like physicians make pretty much the same, or even more, compensation in areas with vastly lower COL why don't we?

According to the BLS family doctors in Wausau Wisconsin make a annual mean wage of $237,140 and in San Francisco $194,480

Family and General Practitioners

RNs in Wausau make $62,490, and in San Francisco $127,670

Registered Nurses

I picked Wausau WI because it is the closest city to my home and I am very familiar with the COL there. MY father lives in San Francisco and I have worked there as a nurse. I am also familiar with the COL there.

There are plenty of COL calculators out there if you need to verify the differences in COL. Here is one: Cost of Living Calculator: Compare the Cost of Living in Two Cities - CNNMoney

Ahhh... and here we go, "The reason for that is because so many people want to live in one of the best places in the country". See how easy this is? You voluntarily choose to work where you make less because you want to live there!

Not sure what you are talking about. I neither live or work in San Diego, though I did grow up there and most of my family lives there and I have worked there as a nurse in the past.

So hospitals don't need to pay you more because they apparently have no need to so long as people chose to live there and make less money than other states.

Well not me, but yes, thank you for making my point.

Seems that besides the high COL in CA, supply and demand fundamentals are also a big factor!

Supply and demand is the biggest factor or course. COL should not be.

It is true that if there are a glut of nurses seeking the same position that this would act to suppress wages.

Yes! Exactly. Why else would the glut of nurses have been created?

[PMFB-RN, RN]

TheCommuter,

Thanks for the input. I see what you are saying. I wonder this "glut" of nursing is really a "glut" of all jobs. I mean people are flocking to healthcare because it is the last industry standing (or growing)... for now.

LW

Nope, the glut of nurses is very different than the glut of other jobs. The glut of nurses was deliberately created to suppress nurse wages and our power to advocate for our patients. The tool used to create the glut was the false "nursing shortage" propaganda. The bad economy had nothing to do with the glut of nurses, except to move the day the glut was achieved ahead a few years.

[LoyalWeim]

Your first post said, "If the hospital in California can pay an RN $45 and hour to recover that CABG in the CVICU then a hospital in Kansas can too." So beforehand you justify equal pay for nurses regardless of location based soley on the cost of a procedure being equal in both places. But now, you concede that there is a lot more to it than just the hospital is out to screw you:

... when you agree that, "Supply and demand is the biggest factor or course." How can you claim that nurses deserve equal pay on one hand because they perform the same action (i.e. CABG) and yet on the other hand claim that another variable- the "biggest factor" (your words, not mine) is what dictates nurses compensation.

"Yes! Exactly. Why else would the glut of nurses have been created?" The glut of nurses is another factor that pushes wages down- which means yet another variable beyond just what to you is "fair" in that a person makes more in California than Kansas.

"I am just trying to get you to comprehend some basic points." Your basic points are completely circular and directly contradict each other.

"You are failing to comprehend what has been written. I don't know why you don't understand."

"I will try again."

"OK so now I hope we can establish that, like any normal person, I can be aware of simple and evident truths."

And... these are all classic attempts to shut down debate... the last measure of desperation!

I think this is pretty much the only thing I can agree with:

"Of course you are very welcome to disagree with me"

So I will leave this thread alone as it is going absolutely nowhere.

Thanks for the lively discussion... chalk this one up to agree-to-disagree.

Regards,

LW

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Your first post said, "If the hospital in California can pay an RN $45 and hour to recover that CABG in the CVICU then a hospital in Kansas can too." So beforehand you justify equal pay for nurses regardless of location based soley on the cost of a procedure being equal in both places.

I am not sure how you arrive at these conclusions or are leaping to these assumptions. I didn't base anything on any one factor. The reimbursement for a procedure was an example, not a sole justification.

But now, you concede that there is a lot more to it than just the hospital is out to screw you:

Uh no. I didn't make the argument you are assuming.

... when you agree that, "Supply and demand is the biggest factor or course." How can you claim that nurses deserve equal pay on one hand because they perform the same action (i.e. CABG) and yet on the other hand claim that another variable- the "biggest factor" (your words, not mine) is what dictates nurses compensation.

That supply and demand are the biggest factors in a nurse's compensation is so obvious I didn't feel the need to point it out. Again I reject you're use of the work "deserve". I didn't use it deliberately.

And... these are all classic attempts to shut down debate... the last measure of desperation!

How ironic that you claim to be shutting down the debate yourself instead of addressing the valid points I made backed up by real world numbers.

I think this is pretty much the only thing I can agree with:

"Of course you are very welcome to disagree with me"

Yes, of course you can disagree, what you can't do is make false claims, at least not unchallenged.