Canadian Online/Distance BSN/BN programs?

Fiona59 · Sep 5, 2008

OK, Athabasca does a programme for LPNs to upgrade to BScN. You have to obtain a license in your home province, a license for Alberta and you must travel to Alberta for the clinical portion of the course.

The PN isn't a "nursing for dummies" type of education. It's intense and time management skills are very important. The License part of LPN is only obtained after passing the CPNRE.

I wish you could tell us who thinks LPNs are being phased out in Canada. I've worked in two provinces and while scope of practice varies depending on where you work there is most certainly a need for us.

In Alberta, we work to full scope of practice and in specialties. That means we can advance our education to work as orthopedic technicians, dialysis nurses, operating room technicians and in the public immunization programmes. It is easier to tell you what we cannot do than what we can, so in my hospital, the hospital policy only permits RNs to insert an NG despite LPNs having the knowledge and central lines are cared for by RNs. We don't work L&D or in NICU, however I've heard of LPNs working in ICU in the Calgary Health Region and in the ER across most of the province. IV push isn't an issue because only ICU and ER RNs are permitted that skill in my hospital.

Distance Ed isn't for everybody, it takes commitment and a lot of planning. Athabasca give an LPN in their programme seven years to complete the degree. A friend of mine thought she could do it in 3-4 yrs but has since resigned herself to six..

Pediatric Critical Care Columnist · Sep 5, 2008

Let's get the Athabasca question out of the way first, since it might have a big influence on the rest. The Athabasca University Bachelor of Nursing program for those with no previous nursing education was a collaborative program offered through Mount Royal College in Calgary. It was not a distance education program, although some of the courses could be taken via distance education. Because the College and Association of Registered Nurses of Alberta (CARNA) has decreed that entry to practice for registered nurses after December 31, 2010 must be a four-year baccalaureate degree, the collaborative program was closed to new admissions in March 2007. At the same time, Mount Royal received degree-granting status and has now enrolled students in its own BScN program. Believe me, nursing is not a career one can prepare for online without some previous nursing education. The post LPN and post RN programs are very sought-after, but they're not easy courses and admission to them is also not easy.

My best advice to you is to continue to do your research into admission requirements and practices. Narrow down your list of possible schools, then start contacting them. Get their appraisals on your chances of being admitted and then go from there. Right now your focus is too broad.

Admissions to nursing programs across the country are highly competitive and although schools will give a required GPA of, let's say, 3.5, the reality is that the many of the people competing for the seats will be coming to the contest with GPAs much higher. Even mature students are held to a much higher level than the university's literature would suggest. That isn't to say that it's impossible for someone with your issues to become a nurse, but it does restrict the opportunities.

I for one don't believe that the LPN will ever be eliminated. They have too much to offer, and their scope of practice is expanding almost daily. The need for frontline caregivers is not going to diminish and to eliminate an echelon of educated and skillful practitioners from the mix would be foolish in the extreme. Some provinces have experimented with functioing without them, and soon discovered they couldn't. Having said that, in some provinces LPNs are working to their full scope and in others they're considered only marginally more skilled than a nurse's aide. There is also a huge discrepancy in pay and benefits between RNs and LPNs in some provinces.

I would be very leery of the private schools you mentioned, as I've heard some very derogatory remarks about the quality of the education they provide for the amount of money they charge; this is reflected in the quality of nurses they are producing. Some former students have complained about the quality of teaching found there. And Stenberg doesn't seem to be overly accountable.

The major difference between the BScN and the BN is perception. Some universities include their nursing program in their faculty of science and some don't. There's very little difference between the actual learing obtained or the outcomes on the Canadian Registered Nurse Exam. I'm not sure which (if any) schools offer a three year baccalaureate in nursing. I believe they are all four year schools.

Fiona59 · Sep 5, 2008

Sprott Shaw promises people the world. I remember when they opened up PN programmes on Vancouver Island in towns with high unemployment rates (EI was usually footing the student fees), they promised their new grads the moon. In fact, there were very few jobs for experienced nurses in the area. I would just be very leery of them. Find out how many of their grads pass CPNRE on the first attempt, find out how many are employed upon graduation.

I've never worked with a private school grad, only those who made it through places like VVI, Norquest, Bow Valley (the old AB Vocational schools). I'm also wondering how their education will fit in with the drive to the two year diploma PN. How will they fit in the university level English and Psych courses?

Violinist85 · Sep 5, 2008

First off, thank you both for your quick replies!

OK, Athabasca does a programme for LPNs to upgrade to BScN. You have to obtain a license in your home province, a license for Alberta and you must travel to Alberta for the clinical portion of the course.
The PN isn't a "nursing for dummies" type of education. It's intense and time management skills are very important. The License part of LPN is only obtained after passing the CPNRE.
I wish you could tell us who thinks LPNs are being phased out in Canada. I've worked in two provinces and while scope of practice varies depending on where you work there is most certainly a need for us.
In Alberta, we work to full scope of practice and in specialties. That means we can advance our education to work as orthopedic technicians, dialysis nurses, operating room technicians and in the public immunization programmes. It is easier to tell you what we cannot do than what we can, so in my hospital, the hospital policy only permits RNs to insert an NG despite LPNs having the knowledge and central lines are cared for by RNs. We don't work L&D or in NICU, however I've heard of LPNs working in ICU in the Calgary Health Region and in the ER across most of the province. IV push isn't an issue because only ICU and ER RNs are permitted that skill in my hospital.

Thanks but I already knew of the bridging program at Athabasca. I was just inquiring why their BN program was closed/suspended last last March. Because they actually did have a direct program for those new to nursing with no nursing background what so ever. But yeah, janfrn answered that.

I also already understood that becoming a PN isn't a joke. I wasn't trying to make it sound like PN was. But I was just trying to figure out the practicality of becoming a practical nurse for my situation. I do afterall have 3 years till I can return to UofT. If I'm able to successfully complete the PN program and get licensed then hopefully I'd have a nice stable income of around $20/hr to support myself and furthering my own education by either completing my current bachelor's at UofT or starting a new one. For me, right now time seems like something I don't have very much of. And because of that, the 1 year certification of the PN did appeal to me immensely. But it does worry me when I read other threads about how PNs in some places have faced in some sense descrimination for whether it be in pay or job security when they perform in some cases the same amount of work as some RNs. The bridging option is also another 4 years isn't it?

Distance Ed isn't for everybody, it takes commitment and a lot of planning. Athabasca give an LPN in their programme seven years to complete the degree. A friend of mine thought she could do it in 3-4 yrs but has since resigned herself to six..

I know it'll be alot of work. But at least the option of completing a course at your own pace is there. To me, that means there is a chance for me to just push and go all out. But alas, it seems Athabasca's BN program is no more. :sniff:

Let's get the Athabasca question out of the way first, since it might have a big influence on the rest. The Athabasca University Bachelor of Nursing program for those with no previous nursing education was a collaborative program offered through Mount Royal College in Calgary. It was not a distance education program, although some of the courses could be taken via distance education. Because the College and Association of Registered Nurses of Alberta (CARNA) has decreed that entry to practice for registered nurses after December 31, 2010 must be a four-year baccalaureate degree, the collaborative program was closed to new admissions in March 2007. At the same time, Mount Royal received degree-granting status and has now enrolled students in its own BScN program. Believe me, nursing is not a career one can prepare for online without some previous nursing education. The post LPN and post RN programs are very sought-after, but they're not easy courses and admission to them is also not easy.

Damn. So my question now is this then: Are there any other nursing schools like Athabasca's? I ask this because Athabasca pretty much accepted everyone and they even state that they don't care about past academic performances.

My best advice to you is to continue to do your research into admission requirements and practices. Narrow down your list of possible schools, then start contacting them. Get their appraisals on your chances of being admitted and then go from there. Right now your focus is too broad.
Admissions to nursing programs across the country are highly competitive and although schools will give a required GPA of, let's say, 3.5, the reality is that the many of the people competing for the seats will be coming to the contest with GPAs much higher. Even mature students are held to a much higher level than the university's literature would suggest. That isn't to say that it's impossible for someone with your issues to become a nurse, but it does restrict the opportunities.

It's not my focus that's too broad... I just suck. I can't use my UofT undergrad gpa since it's much too low to compete. So my most likely route into any future in education is through high school marks or as a mature student which is still tragically hard.

I've been calling colleges and schools but it seems most are waitlisted for up to 3 years and those that are not are for-profit private schools. At some places, their registrars don't even know how many seats they have available and they suggest that I apply first. But then again, it's not their time or their $60 to $75 per application.

Honestly, right now I really just hate my life. I lost my reason for living a long time ago and only recently have been trying so hard to find it again. But I feel as though I'm too late. I'm the kid that fell through the cracks in the system, albeit very late in life, and now even if I try my hardest to reach out for help it's not there anymore. I've tried my best to be a good kid all my life. I didn't smoke, drink, or do any drugs. I got A's all throughout elementary and high school. I never stayed out too late. I played with the safe kids. I didn't explore having a girlfriend until only recently. I listened to my parents. I was a good kid. But now I feel like I'm so alone. Whatever potential I had, I feel as though I'll never get to see it now.

I for one don't believe that the LPN will ever be eliminated. They have too much to offer, and their scope of practice is expanding almost daily. The need for frontline caregivers is not going to diminish and to eliminate an echelon of educated and skillful practitioners from the mix would be foolish in the extreme. Some provinces have experimented with functioing without them, and soon discovered they couldn't. Having said that, in some provinces LPNs are working to their full scope and in others they're considered only marginally more skilled than a nurse's aide. There is also a huge discrepancy in pay and benefits between RNs and LPNs in some provinces.

If some provinces really did experiment functioning without LPNs then that's already a bit of a job threat. Standardizing the education requirement upgrade to a 4 year bachelors seems to be another red flag of the direction that the government is going. I have nothing against LPNs and I'm still considering becoming one and I most likely will given that admission as an LPN is easier. I'm not saying that becoming an LPN will be easy. But at least, I'd have a shot at something I suppose.

I would be very leery of the private schools you mentioned, as I've heard some very derogatory remarks about the quality of the education they provide for the amount of money they charge; this is reflected in the quality of nurses they are producing. Some former students have complained about the quality of teaching found there. And Stenberg doesn't seem to be overly accountable.

I'm very cautious of these private schools too. I was actually offered admissions to med schools in the Caribbean based on my high school marks. However, as you might know, these private schools have very high attrition rates and tuition and living expenses which doesn't mean at all a better education. It's also much harder to gain employment after.

But if it coems down to it and I have no choice... this might be the only route for me. I've moved out and away from my parents. They're asian. My screw up in school does not sit well with them. So I'm on my own now. Which just makes school all that much harder.

I'm wondering though, does OSAP (I'm from Ontario) cover these private schools? How is it handled if say I've recently moved to BC after living my entire life in ON? Is there a BC version of OSAP? Do I qualify for that or am I still under OSAP?

I definitely don't have $22,500 just lying around. But if I'm able to get work as an LPN after, work at about $20/hr for 40 hrs/wk, I should be able to pay it off within a year or two at most... I hope. And then I can continue with my plan to further my own education. Get a new bachelors. Try out for med school in a few years.

The major difference between the BScN and the BN is perception. Some universities include their nursing program in their faculty of science and some don't. There's very little difference between the actual learing obtained or the outcomes on the Canadian Registered Nurse Exam. I'm not sure which (if any) schools offer a three year baccalaureate in nursing. I believe they are all four year schools.

Is there any difference between the BScN and the BN in terms of applying to grad schools or med schools? Are both treated as an undergrad degree? It's rather confusing to say the least to have two things that are the same but different.

BCIT (British Columbia Institute of Technology), which is a college I believe, offers a 3 year program. It's one of very few that I know of that does off the 3 year program. It's relatively new and was started in response to a growing demand for nurses. I was hoping there'd be more schools like this... and preferrably if they had next to no admission cutoffs but rather weeded out the applicants once the schoolwork began. That'd suit me quite well. But sadly, I don't think many schools like this exist.

I can't say I believe in god... but sometimes I admit I wouldn't mind a miracle. :saint:

Guest233447 · Sep 5, 2008

Which is great news for a loser like me.

First off, Violinist, you are NOT a loser. We are not defined by our mistakes, we are defined by our choices, and our actions. You are choosing to overcome some negative choices you've made in the past, and losers don't do that. So think positively about yourself - that's the first step to success! Trust me, I've blown it many times, and I'm going by the motto "It's never too late" for my life. :)

I don't have a lot of advice for you, because I'm nearly in the same boat! I'm trying to decide between going for LPN, and going for BScN. The only difference is that I don't have 4 previous years of experience in University - but I'm no spring chicken either. I've been home raising my kids, and I'm starting from upgrading my highschool courses. Long row to hoe, so to speak. I have the choice to attend an LPN program here which is offered in more of a distance format, or just go for it and upgrade the whole shebang and hope that I can pull off marks high enough to make it into the BScN program at the local college (in collaboration with UofA).

Basically, I just wanted to encourage you to believe in yourself! I'm constantly amazed when I meet the other students who are in their 30's (as I am) who have set their mind to the task, and they are accomplishing things they never dreamed they could have! Even for myself, to have come as far as I have has given me confidence to know that if I really apply myself, there is no "I can't".

If you're willing to move within BC and Ontario, why not expand your provincial scope try some other provinces - I know for sure that not ALL LPN programs are waitlisted. Just check around. Or, go for BScN - I don't think you'd regret it!

Fiona59 · Sep 6, 2008

BCIT is a great school. It has been turning out fantastic nurses for decades. I had friends go there in the 1970s and they loved it. For some reason I think the nursing programme there (and at Langara) came about as the hospital based training classes ended.

That was back when the BScN was just coming into existence.

OgopogoLPN, LPN, RN · Sep 6, 2008

Just to let you know, not all LPN schools in BC have 2-3 year waiting lists. I just completed the LPN program at Okanagan College in Kelowna. There is no wait list system.

You apply with a minimum of 70% in Biology 12, 70% in English 12 and 70% in Math 11 or take the nursing math proficiency test. They take 26 students per intake (3 intakes per year). They might get 300 applicants per year. If your grades are in the top 78 of applicants, you get in. If you don't, you apply again for the next intake. There are also PN programs at the Salmon Arm and Penticton campuses.

I got in on my first application, no wait list :)

I would definately stay away from the private colleges like Sprott Shaw and Stenberg. I ran into some Sprott Shaw students during my practicum. They were unable to attend practicum for over 2 weeks due to not having an instructor! However, to be fair, the Kelowna campus of Sprott Shaw has had a 100% pass rate on the national exam for at least 2 years (as had Okanagan College). Oh, and my tuition was a total of $4,600 plus about $600 for books. Sprott Shaw is $21,000 or thereabouts!

Good luck on your decision. :)

Guest233447 · Sep 6, 2008

Hi Ogopogo - are you working now that you've completed college, if so, how do you like it??

Only $4600 for tuition - that is a great deal! My potential LPN college is about $6600 per year (that will include books I believe) but here the program is 2 years long (4 semesters, summer off between). Also, we have to take some stuff that makes no sense to me, such as "Introduction to English Language and Literature". Because English Literature will have NO bearing on developing my skill set as a nurse, but I guess they figure we should pay for those courses anyhow...

Fiona59 · Sep 6, 2008

You must be in Alberta. The PN eduation is given a diploma now. Those first year university transfer credits are there so that you can get into a BScN programme later on if you chose to go that route with part of the basics out of the way. So you probably have Sociology and Psych 100 level courses in there somewhere.

There is a theory going around that AB is the trial ground for the changes to the nursing education programmes in Canada that CNA wants to implement by 2020.

From what we've seen in Alberta, it just might be true.

Guest233447 · Sep 6, 2008

I am in AB, Fiona. And it may be as you say... I don't have much idea about any of this. The only thing I think I've heard repetitively is that the only way to bridge from LPN to BScN is through Athabasca, but I don't know much about any of that.

I'm just trying to find out if the program I have access here to is doable - they've changed locations 3 times in 3 years, and I have found communication with them a bit difficult. I'll keep trying though.

Otherwise, there is a BScN program available here, but competition is stiff - 44 seats with usually over 150+ applicants. And then 4 years of full time, intense schooling.

If I was in my 20's I'd go for it, but I'm nearly 33 now. And I have kids, and can't see how I'd juggle everything for that length of time. Still working through all these things, and don't have to figure it all out right this minute. :)

Fiona59 · Sep 6, 2008

Hey, the year I decided it was now or never, the RN programme I applied for had 1200 applications for 120 seats. Norquest pretty much took me as soon as I applied. In my class there were 36 people who had applied to the same RN programme as me, including two who held BAs.

The main thing is to do what feels comfortable for you. By the time you graduate the starting wage will be around $21/hour which is way better than the $15 I made as a new grad.

Goodluck