Can paramedic or EMT administer an IM med like Haldol or Ativan to help unruly pt?

TraumaSurfer · May 18, 2011

You do not read before you go flying off the handle. I'm all for liberal arts and higher education. I'm a perpetual student myself. I don't know why you think I'm in opposition to that.

What the hell is your problem dude? I was agreeing and offering supportive statements for your post.

This was your comment which is smiliar to what I restated.

\Additionally, few EMS systems, particularly those not fire/gov't based, don't pay enough for the average Joe to care about taking the liberal arts courses and putting in the initiative to get some type of college degree. Most people don't go to school for grins and giggles. They want some money at the end. If you want EMS to become a field that requires more higher education then you're going to have change both salary (which isn't going to happen), and you're going to have to provide room for career growth (which also won't happen unless it's a fire/gov't based system).

What I was describing is that MOST people want more pay with more education, and private EMS isn't going to shell out for it. Get all the degrees you want. Around HERE private (corp.) service paramedics will still make about $12 an hour, max unless they work for the city fire department I live in which 2.5% more for each additional degree. What the rest of the country is doing I don't know, but I'll wager that random private ambulance service isn't going to let Johnny Q. Paramedic walk in and say "Well, I've completed my B.A. in History. I want a raise now."

Fire departments have a different rank ladder than EMS but they do promote their FFs to become educated similar to Police departments that now want Associates and Bachelors degrees. These careers no longer have to take just whatever fits the uniform.

If you complete a degree that is revalent to the profession, you should be able to find a job that pays better. Those in EMS can look at their county/State disaster and emergency systems for advancement. In EMS you have the opportunity to go to flight, CCT or specialty to use additional medical education. You also know the minimal standards for your profession and you can use your education to help promote education or just hang out with the lowest denominators whining.

Nurses also know if they go a B.A. in Art, they probably won't advance in nursing but a BSN will be helpful or something else related to healthcare, management or IT. An accountant wouldn't get a degree in auto mechanics unless he or she wanted to work a business in that area. So some of this has to be commonsense. That is also why I posted the links to the EMS degrees. They are not about Art or history. All the classes are revalent to EMS. So maybe before you got that degree in History you should have explored your career options or sort guidiance.

And don't start with your FD bash. The Paramedic as it is now is easy enough to be an add on cert for a career firefighter. Raise the educational standards and see what the FDs will do to follow through.

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 18, 2011

And don't start with your FD bash.

What?! When I was bashing fire departments? What's going on in your head, TraumaSurfer? All animosity aside, I'm concerned.

Anna Flaxis, BSN, RN · May 19, 2011

So we're watching "Cops" and the episode showed a belligerent person being sat on the back of an ambulance or treatment of a cut on her face. She was kicking and screaming, so the police officer threatened to tase her. We were wondering, once someone is placed in the ambulance, can the paramedic or EMT administer an IM med like Haldol or Ativan to help control their behavior? I'm guessing so, but my husband doesn't think so. Anybody in emergency medicine know?

Not gonna read pages and pages here, so if anyone's already said this, I apologize in advance.

In my area, absolutely. Paramedics can intubate, start IVs, draw blood, give narcotics and antiarrhythmics, etc. etc. It's covered under the license of the medical director (who also develops the protocols) for our municipal Fire and Rescue Department.

TraumaSurfer · May 19, 2011

What?! When I was bashing fire departments?

Don't you ever read what you write?

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 19, 2011

Don't you ever read what you write?

Tell me precisely what I said that bashed fire departments.

Editorial Team / Moderator · May 19, 2011

Enough of the back-and-forth -- you know who you are. If it doesn't stop, this thread will be closed. Thanks for your consideration and cooperation.

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 19, 2011

Close it so I don't feel obligated to come back. I don't walk away from things very well.

Medic09, BSN, RN, EMT-P · May 19, 2011

I didn't read all the responses, but I will verify that-yes, in many areas paramedics carry and may administer Haldol, lorazepam, diazepam, and possibly some other 'behavioral drugs'. Since we work with protocols/standing orders/guidelines (depends on what the medical director calls them, and there are some legal differences), we don't usually need a direct verbal order. Even so, the only time I gave Haldol as a rural paramedic - I called first. It was a good choice for a violent psych patient and looking at nearly an hour long transport over rough roads. Most medics are more familiar and comfortable using benzos in various situations.

justashooter · May 20, 2011

succinylcholine goes a long way towards making those violent patients a lot more compliant...
Easy, it's just a joke...

my fingers were on the keyboard before i read your last sentence.

warped sense of humour, though highly accurate.

justashooter · May 20, 2011

for a person choosing to be out of control, a Taser can be very theraputic.
Remember ACLS principles: Stable pts get drugs, unstable pt's get electricity.

tasers were designed to immobilise people who were an immediate threat to themselves or others.

sadly, they have of late been used more to gain compliance than to prevent injury.

even more sadly, they have on many occasions resulted in the unnecessary death of the taser victim.

in a world that bases it's philosophy on the basic principle of "to do no harm" tasers have a very limited application.

it is sad to see people in the health care profession advocating use of pain inducing devices when proper least restrictive restraint mechanisms are available. "but it's too hard to do it the traditional way, and so much easier just to zap them until they writhe in pain and submission," you say. in that case, why not just use a cattle prod?

justashooter · May 20, 2011

Having said all that I'd rather tase someone. I've tased a few people in my LE career. The gratification is much greater than giving any medication.

this is not something i would write on a public message board.

receiving gratification by causing pain to another is not generally accepted in the medical field.

tasing people may have relieved your stress in the moment, at the cost of cruel and inhumane treatment of another.

ImThatGuy, BSN, RN · May 20, 2011

this is not something i would write on a public message board.
receiving gratification by causing pain to another is not generally accepted in the medical field.
tasing people may have relieved your stress in the moment, at the cost of cruel and inhumane treatment of another.

Yeah, well, when you can joke around and people know it then it's fine. Being a nerd about it like the time someone mentioned something about a chair and a psych patient is no reason for you to come on here and tell me what you think. I really couldn't care less.

The TASER is an awesome product. I have experience with it. It has saved lives, and I have used it to spare a life.

Don't bother replying to this. You're talking to a brick wall.