California Vaccine Bill Eliminates Personal Exemption

heron, ASN, RN · Jul 6, 2015

@777RN: You are beating a dead horse. Re-litigating the science yet again is a waste of time and bandwidth. Only someone who has grown up free of these preventable diseases would try to sabotage herd immunity in this way. Your efforts to do so are ethically and morally wrong.

lindarn · Jul 6, 2015

If you believe that nonsense, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would be happy to sell you.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN,(ret)

Somewhere in the PACNW

GabesMommy2014 · Jul 6, 2015

You say you've "studied vaccines" for a long time - what do you mean by studied? Are you an immunologist? Chemist? Any sort of actual medicL research professional?

musingmom · Jul 6, 2015

"This is just saying that if your child is going to go to public school, they can't put other kids at risk."

(Sorry I don't know how to use the quote feature that shows the author on my phone.)

I don't like this rationale. Before I go on, my kids are fully vaccinated, and I think vaccines are safe, and to not vaccinate only means you are choosing the risk of the disease, over the risk of the vaccine. But, NOT vaccinating does not put others at risk -at school-... There are no immune compromised kids at school, because their risk is just as great to the flu as to measles, meaning either could be really bad for them. And, there are no babies under 1, the other risk group I hear cited.

Now, if you want to talk about herd immunity, and vaccination rates commensurate with effective herd immunity, then I get you. But using school milestones is just a convenient way to enforce vaccination. As far as I know, people who got measles in the recent outbreak who had confirmed vaccination histories all had not been vaccinated. If you are vaccinated, you are not going to get it. School children who are vaccinated do not get diseases from school children who are not vaccinated. If someone has different info, I'd be glad to look at it.

And I don't like it. If we legislate the stupid out of people... How long before someone else's stupid is something I don't want to do?

However, I don't have a better solution either. In Southern California, my demographic, there are still a lot of people with bad information, or who refuse to make a decision just in case (which is choosing the disease imho), or are just lazy (they exist, I know them) and this will get those people vaccinating.

In the debate over this law, the "crazy" was too loud, and the parental rights folks didn't get a word in edgewise. I.

allnurses Guide · Jul 6, 2015

Outbreak Clusters Appear Among the Unvaccinated

Earlier this year, researchers confirmed that a 2010 whooping cough outbreak in California, the nation's worst in over 50 years, was spread by children whose parents applied for non-medical exemptions to school vaccination requirements, many for religious reasons. Anti-Vaccination Movement Causes a Deadly Year in the U.S.

This is only one incidence where unvaccinated school children were spreading vaccine preventable disease. It happens all the time.

allnurses Guide · Jul 6, 2015

Musingmom are you trying to tell us there are no school children undergoing chemotherapy, have HIV/AIDS or other immune compromising conditions in all of California.?

I would like to see where that incorrect information came from.

GabesMommy2014 · Jul 6, 2015

The way I see it, making vaccinations mandatory for public school will have an overall beneficial effect for society as a whole.

1.) It will help to maintain the high vaccination rate needed to maintain herd immunity;

2.) it will also protect all children because as we know vaccinations arent 100% effective (NOTE this does not mean they are completely ineffective, antivaxxers! Stop trying to use this argument to support your case!)

3.) Also, it is important to note that many parents often bring younger siblings to school for things like pickups.

4.) And finally, requiring vaccinations will most likely force the hand of people who have been on the fence about vaccinating and cause them to do it - this means an overall greater amount of safety in other public venues where a lot more immunocompromised and/or infants are likely to be.

musingmom · Jul 7, 2015

Outbreak Clusters Appear Among the Unvaccinated
Earlier this year, researchers confirmed that a 2010 whooping cough outbreak in California, the nation's worst in over 50 years, was spread by children whose parents applied for non-medical exemptions to school vaccination requirements, many for religious reasons. Anti-Vaccination Movement Causes a Deadly Year in the U.S.
This is only one incidence where unvaccinated school children were spreading vaccine preventable disease. It happens all the time.

Actually, unvaccinated children were not responsible for the outbreak, or at least they were not the only ones responsible. It turns out that when we switched from attenuated to conjugate vaccines in 1997, we needed to have also added a booster. So we did. See the CDC info here: http://www.cdc.gov/media/matte/2011/10_whooping_cough.pdf and a New England Journal of Medicine article here: MMS: Error. The booster works.

I am not saying that unvaccinated children don't pose a risk to herd immunity, please read my original post again. I'm saying that, in general, BECAUSE VACCINES WORK, vaccinated humans are not at risk from unvaccinated humans. In the original I think I said school children, but humans works too.

It is this kind of information that makes the crazy antivaxers shut off and not listen to us... because of faulty rationale like "my vaccinated child deserves to be safe at school."

To be clear:

I am not against vaccinations. I like them. They're good. I think everyone should do it.

I am against legislating things that should be parental choice. This applies to other things besides vaccines, like how my child should be educated, for example.

I realize that there has not been a better solution for vaccination rates. I don't have a better plan. I still don't like this plan.

edited to add: I don't know why the NEJM link says error, but it works for me, let me know if no one else can access it.

musingmom · Jul 7, 2015

Musingmom are you trying to tell us there are no school children undergoing chemotherapy, have HIV/AIDS or other immune compromising conditions in all of California.?

Um, yes. I believe it is standard practice to keep children undergoing chemo out of school while their white count is down. Do you have different info?

And yes, children with HIV can receive some vaccines, and are not always considered immunocompromised, based on their viral load. With appropriate treatment their outcomes are quite good. Again, do you have different info?

I'm not a pediatric HIV or chemo nurse. If you are and have some EBP sources for us, please share. I can be wrong. I don't have personal experience with children with HIV, but I do have some with children undergoing chemo. They stayed home. The school sent a teacher, who wore a mask. I bet she was fully immunized too.

The measles outbreak, which inspired this legislation, did not occur in a school. It occurred in a crowded public place with an airborne illness. But Disneyland doesn't have to make sure guests are vaccinated.

Again, I'm for vaccines. Everybody should do it.

allnurses Guide · Jul 7, 2015

Every unvaccinated child is a potential disease vector. There is no doubt that unvaccinated children are responsible for spreading measles, whooping cough and many other vaccine preventable diseases.

The decreasing efficacy of the whooping cough vaccine over time lead to a decrease in herd immunity but as it has been investigated the main problem with the increased whooping cough infection rates was mainly due to unvaccinated school age children. This is/was most evident in communities with large pockets of unvaccinated school age children.

Mandatory vaccination programs are a necessity. There is not any other method that has been shown to be as effective in reducing vaccine preventable diseases.

Personal choice does not trump public health.

allnurses Guide · Jul 7, 2015

10 Common School Issues: Parenting Children with Primary Immunodeficiency. Immune compromised children go to school all the time. Their are guidelines and policies in place to deal with it. It is obvious that when immune compromised children are at their weakest they will not attend school, but just because they may or may not have normal WBC count does not mean they are not still immune compromised.

More than 20 cases of measles in California due to '''unvaccinated children''' - TODAY.com

musingmom · Jul 7, 2015

I can't find any info on the prevalence of immune compromised children in schools, nor can I determine your exact definition of "immune compromised." Your link does not shed light on any of that, nor does it even mention the exposure of immune compromised children to unvaccinated children... in fact your link confirms that many times, when most vulnerable, immune compromised children must stay home. Which is what I said. It also confirms that immune compromised children are just as at risk with the common flu, as with a disease that has a vaccine, as either could be very problematic for them. Which is what I said.

Here is the CDC's info on the CA measles outbreak: Measles | Cases and Outbreaks | CDC. I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take the Today Show's word for anything. The CDC says the outbreak originated with a traveler from the Philippines, though they never found that individual. The link gives the reasons why they made that determination. The outbreak then spread through unvaccinated individuals, both children and adults. The number of cases linked to Disneyland was actually far less than cases in 2014, linked to the Amish in Ohio. But even the 2014 outbreak was linked to the Philippines. Of course, "Disneyland measles" is far more sensational than "Amish measles," I guess, which is why it received more news coverage. And legislation.

At any rate, I'm done with this, I've made my point. I AGREE that vaccinations are important and safe, and high rates protect those who cannot be vaccinated. I really dislike the rhetoric that comes with all the schools must be fully vaccinated and it's all those unvaccinated children's fault, because it is inaccurate and weakens the case for vaccination.