BSN vs Bachelor's + RN School

[jjjoy]

Just a thought here... if you disagree, please be respectful...

There is a strong push from some for BSN to be the entry to practice for RNs.

What about instead of requiring a BSN, to require those applying for RN school to have a bachelor's degree? The bachelor's could be in any field, though there would also be certain pre-reqs that if not covered in the bachelor's program would still need to be taken to apply for RN school. RN school would be revamped to include whatever BSN content is currently lacking, though some of it would already be covered by the previous bachelor's and pre-requisite classes.

This is how medical school works. And in my state, to qualify for a teaching credential program you also have to have a bachelor's degree. It might force more consistency between nursing programs in regard to pre-requisites, as currently they vary a lot from school to school. This plan also doesn't force nursing programs to include collegiate course or offer college degrees. RN school would be strictly about training nurses. Students would be entering the programs already possessing critical thinking skills that they honed while earning their bachelor's degrees.

Universities could even offer a bachelor's degree in "Nursing studies" or "Health care sciences" that would include standard RN school pre-reqs as well as cover topics relevant to nursing and health care.

Let's discuss the merits of BSN versus bachelor's + (revamped) RN school and not whether or not BSN should be the entry for practice.

[Crux1024]

Just a note... I think the reason the ADN has become a 3 year program is the difficulty getting classes when you need them. Credit-wise, it's about 80 credits to get an associates degree (looking quickly at my program including the prereqs). That is doable in 5, maybe 6

semesters. It's just that it is impossible to take the classes in the correct order, apply to the program, wait on the waiting list, and finish up the nursing portion in two years elapsed time. But theoretically, I suppose it could happen.

I always find this very interesting, b/c I had no idea that a 2 yr degree took 3 years to get! My school is probably one of the only true 2 year programs left. It is 4 full time semesters and you are awarded with your ASN. They recommend you take some classes b4 you start, but its not required. There are several recent high school grads in class with me now. It can be done in 2 years. It is wrong of the schools to milk the students and take their $$....

[llg, PhD, RN]

This is a very interesting idea and I can certainly see that it would have some benefits. However, I believe that the vast majority of nurses would disagree because nurses would lose their ability to switch specialities so quickly and easily. That is one aspect of nursing that is appealing to many.

I agree. A lot of people would balk at the idea. But, I don't think it would have to be tht big of a deal. The additional education one would need to switch specialties could be comparable to the orientations that employers must provide to the nurses who switch. Schools and employers could form partnerships to provide the proper training and award the formal credentials.

The idea opens up a lot of possibilities that would not prevent nurses from switching specialties -- but make it a more formal process with credentials that would be formally recognized by other employers.

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

We all know that "2-year" RN programs are really require at least 3-years of study because of pre-reqs like microbio and A&P. Yet BSN programs usually are 4 years of coursework from start to finish. So with just 1 year of difference in coursework, the BSN provides a bachelor's degree and includes *all* those extra BSN courses.

Something doesn't add up.

The BSN programs that I'm applying to usually take 5 years to complete. Two years of pre-reqs, one additional semester waiting after pre-reqs are done to find out if you are accepted, then 2.5 years of core nursing classes. So it's not just ADNs that don't happen on the supposed time frame.

[jjjoy, LPN]

The BSN programs that I'm applying to usually take 5 years to complete. Two years of pre-reqs, one additional semester waiting after pre-reqs are done to find out if you are accepted, then 2.5 years of core nursing classes. So it's not just ADNs that don't happen on the supposed time frame.

2.5 years of core nursing? Seriously?! Wow! Actually, that's probably good for the students but it seems odd if there are two years of pre-reqs. How does the school justify it? Perhaps it's theoretically possible to squeeze all the pre-reqs into 2 years? Or there's an expectation to take summer courses? And yet if you already have a bachelor's, there are programs where you can cram all of the core nursing and BSN content into 12 months! Unless they've got clinicals at least 4 days/week - which doesn't leave much time for lecture and study - how is it that they are technically considered just as prepared for clinical work as graduates from more traditional programs? The reality that most don't want to say explicitly is that accelerated programs are there to appeal to those interested in NP roles who don't ever plan to practice at the bedside. For primary care NP roles, I don't see that bedside experience is necessary and apparently neither do nursing schools.

"Nursing" as a whole may benefit from the increase in advanced practice nurses, but bedside nursing almost seems to be withering on the vine. I suppose it's never been the glamorous nursing role and for a long time has benefited from offering relatively high wages for relatively fewer years of education (eg not a bachelor's degree) such that those trained up have no choice but to stay at the bedside unless they want to take a significant pay cut. At least that's how it looks to me at this point.

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

2.5 years of core nursing? Seriously?! Wow! Actually, that's probably good for the students but it seems odd if there are two years of pre-reqs. How does the school justify it? Perhaps it's theoretically possible to squeeze all the pre-reqs into 2 years? Or there's an expectation to take summer courses? And yet if you already have a bachelor's, there are programs where you can cram all of the core nursing and BSN content into 12 months! Unless they've got clinicals at least 4 days/week - which doesn't leave much time for lecture and study - how is it that they are technically considered just as prepared for clinical work as graduates from more traditional programs? The reality that most don't want to say explicitly is that accelerated programs are there to appeal to those interested in NP roles who don't ever plan to practice at the bedside. For primary care NP roles, I don't see that bedside experience is necessary and apparently neither do nursing schools.

Both BSN programs I'm applying to have 2 years of pre-reqs and 2.5 years of core nursing classes. So they've always been 4.5 year programs. Now, with ever increasing applicant pools, nobody is considered until they are completely done with the pre-reqs. Previously, students could apply while in their last semester of pre-reqs. Now, nobody can get accepted that way because there will always be more qualified applicants who have completed all of the pre-reqs before applying.

So both universities recommend the students take the remainder of their liberal arts course work while waiting to find out if they have been accepted or not.

So unless a student has a significant amount of AP/CLEP credit for classes like general/organic chem, biology, English, and statistics - it is a five year program.

Looking at the positive side of this, with this schedule, most semesters are 12 credits, which is a gentle load.

I mentioned this because I'm getting a twitch in my eye (seriously) when I hear students say, "But the BSN is only one year more than the ADN."

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

I just looked at the pre-reqs I referred to above. It looks like one BSN program's pre-reqs could be done in 1.5 years, then wait one semester taking liberal arts, and then start the 2.5 years of core nursing. So one program I referred to could be done in 4.5 years.

This has been an interesting thread, looking at the historical influences of how these programs developed. My own experience of meeting pre-reqs for two ADN programs and two BSN programs illustrates what has been said here. For example, one ADN program I'll be applying to has eleven pre-req courses and two co-reqs. The co-reqs are anthropology and statistics.

The five year BSN program I talked about has 73 core nursing credits over 5 semesters. Now I'm wondering if this is unusual?

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

2.5 years of core nursing? Seriously?! Wow! Actually, that's probably good for the students but it seems odd if there are two years of pre-reqs. How does the school justify it?

I just noticed that I did not answer your question. I was too busy (self-absorbed) sharing the life and times of a pre-nursing student (me) jockying for admission to multiple ADN and BSN programs.

I've never heard any of these schools try to justify anything. I just thought it was understood that some bachelor's degrees go beyond four years. At my university, education majors and architecture majors go beyond four years as well. In addition, the (large) university is not attempting to increase undergraduate nursing enrollment. They are rapidly increasing the accelerated BSN program for those who already have BS/BA degrees. It has made me wonder if nursing could actually go to a grad level program in the distant future.

[jjjoy, LPN]

It would be interesting to see just how many BSN programs are *officially* longer than 4 years (not including wait lists, class scheduling difficulties, waiting for acceptance, etc). That certainly reflects the ADN programs trending to 3 years, doesn't it?

Those in policy-making for nursing tend to agree with the push for more education for nurses. In theory, I can see it. In practice, I get stuck on the fact that there's such a demand for licensed nurses that it's hard to imagine them all being filled by nurses with bachelor's degrees. And it's hard to imagine health facilities and consumers could afford the cost differential. In that respect, I'm not sure what exactly these visionaries are seeing. Do they see nurses with bachelor's degrees working at the bedside and filling all current RN roles? Seems unrealistic.

A quick search shows that 5-year Bach of Architecture programs are the norm. And the program descriptions specifically say right away that it's a 5-year program, so there is no mistaking it's not a typical bachelor's program. And it looks pretty consistent across schools. The Bach of Arch degree qualifies them to take the registering examination. Apparently there are some graduate programs (2-3year) that also prepare students to take the registering exam. There are also graduate programs specifically for those already qualified as architects for further development and specialization. I'll bet there's some controversy in that field in terms of employers demanding a masters degree or not and if a bach is "enough".

For teaching, it's essentially a bachelor's degree plus a year for the teaching credential. Bachelor's programs generally grant a degree in education along with credential coursework, but anyone with a bachelor's degree and meeting whatever other requirements can also apply for a 1-year program to earn a teaching credential. That's kind of what I was initially suggesting for bachelor's level nursing. A bach degree plus a year of straight nursing education. Those who didn't major in nursing (like those who didn't major in education), would have to take whatever pre-reqs they might be lacking that nursing majors covered as part of their degree.

[amzyRN]

I am getting ready to attend an accelerated 2nd degree BSN (only 12 months long) and wish I could take a less expensive RN program since I already have a bachelors degree. Maybe the 2nd bachelors degree is kind of redundant though. With respect to extra stuff a bachelors degree might add to one's critical thinking skills, I think it adds a wider breadth of knowledge on which to draw. Also, with the bachelors degree comes confidence in one's abilities and additionally it carries a higher 'status' in our society. Though a bachelors degree nowadays is more like a high school diploma. Nonetheless, the extra philosophy classes or whatever will help one as a nurses.

But suppose a person has taken a lot of classes but never gets a degree or is a self taught scholar that possesses a broad range of knowledge, then that would also help their nursing practice.

In essence, I think the broader range of experiences and knowledge makes a better nurse.

J