birth as transformative experience for fathers

Altalorraine · Mar 31, 2006

It's an interesting question. Where I work it would be presumptuous to assume that the mother and the father of the baby are in a romantic relationship. It has happened (more than once) that the father is on the phone with his girlfriend while the mother labors. I have all kinds of middle class values about what a family looks like and what everyone's roles should be, but I can't assume that my patients will share those values. For example, often it isn't the father of the baby who is the primary support person for the mother and new baby, rather it is the grandmother, sisters and aunts.

Altalorraine

Selke · Mar 31, 2006

It's an interesting question. Where I work it would be presumptuous to assume that the mother and the father of the baby are in a romantic relationship. It has happened (more than once) that the father is on the phone with his girlfriend while the mother labors. I have all kinds of middle class values about what a family looks like and what everyone's roles should be, but I can't assume that my patients will share those values. For example, often it isn't the father of the baby who is the primary support person for the mother and new baby, rather it is the grandmother, sisters and aunts.
Altalorraine

Yes, those moms who say the BF with them in labor isn't the FOB.... You are so right about those "middle class values" influencing how we interact with pts/SOs. Which is why I think this question of how to acknowledge role of FOB (or BF, as it were) is so important, but also how to take into account alternative romantic or family arrangements. Who knows, treating a guy as being important in the baby's life may somehow change him positively. And goddess bless those grandmothers, sisters, girlfriends, and aunties who will be there helping raise that child! Extended families and support are a blessing. I've worked very few places where married mom and dad are the norm, but not too uncommon for all of mom's children to be fathered by the same man, although they aren't married.

Jolie, BSN · Mar 31, 2006

I'm glad you started a thread to discuss this topic.

Let me start off by clarifying one thing: the mention made above about fathers being most likely to accept responsibility for their children during the birthing process refers to financial responsibility. It was the conclusion of a study done a number of years ago and cited by state officials who were advocating a policy of having hospital staff approach unwed fathers during mom and baby's hospital stay and ask them fill out paternity papers establishing the father's financial obligation to the child. This was deemed necessary because of the large number of unmarried women having children who ended up on welfare due to lack of support from their babies' fathers, and the difficulty and expense involved in tracking fathers down and proving paternity for the purposes of financial support.

Let me illustrate the extent of the problem: At one hospital where I worked, it was not unusual for a man to father multiple children by multiple mothers, often within a short time frame. Since many of the mothers were young, and uneducated, they often relied on welfare to support themselves and their children. It was customary (in this area) for the MOTHER to give a portion of her welfare check to the FATHER, thus reducing the amount of money she had to support herself and her baby. Since some fathers had multiple children by different women, they supported themselves on these "payouts". They convinced the women that this was the "right" thing to do, since the women would not be receiving welfare money had they not become pregnant. So, tax-payer money intended to support young mothers and children went, in part, to able-bodied deadbeats who were literally taking food money away from their children. No wonder state officials decided that SOMETHING had to be done to stop this!

What I found to be particularly sad was the situation described above, where the father of the baby is present during labor, but has his attention focused on phone calls and visits to his current "girlfriend", not the mother of the baby. These poor new mothers often seemed satisfied that he showed up at all, or brought a pack of diapers or an outfit, perhaps the only "support" he would ever provide his new child.

It is refreshing that you are trying to take this to a higher level, seeking interventions that may help fathers bond to their infants and promote greater involvement throughout childhood. I am curious to know what interventions are helpful in teaching young women self-respect, as well, so that they stop accepting such crummy treatment by their "men".

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Mar 31, 2006

So how many points do I lose for saying that, as a dad, I could have easily done without the IP, and for that matter, PP experience. Of course that isn't an option, because apparently us guys are socially outcasted 'cads' if we don't particularly want to swap 'labor' stories like women often do (and I work w/ women, so I know darn well how often that comes up.)

I love my kids dearly. But, they 'grew' on me. I went through the motions when they were wee small, but for all of them, it was somewhere in the 4-6 month range before I cared more about the process as a function of being a dad as opposed to taking my 'turn'.

I guess most women are equipped emotionally thus that they cannot understand that. And, I suppose that's a good thing.

But be mindful of this minority (or not so minority) point of view: by pushing the whole IP/PP on guys, you are, at least sometimes, pushing YOUR values on them as opposed to being an advocate to the 'experience'.

And how can they do anything else but play the part you scripted for them? To me, it was nothing short of moral arm-twisting.

And what do we get for it: constant complaints that we aren't 'involved' enough in a process that is, essentially, foisted upon us. 14 yrs later, I still hear about the 30 min break I took in a 'down' period before active labor out of a 14 hr experience. (I know, I know - SHE DIDN'T HAVE A BREAK. Whatever. SHE has a 14 hour labor story to tell, complete w/ that knowing look she receives about how dads just didn't understand. -- and besides, she really, truly didn't need help watching TV at that moment. And I really, truly needed the walk AND the opportunity to arrange for flowers.)

I did point out that it is a minority view. But, I doubt it's a rare one.

And I understand where the idea comes from. Women are instinctually geared to treat newborns and the whole experience as divine. So, it's unthinkable that you could conceive that the same might not be true for men. And so, you act 'AS IF' it were universally true of men as well as it is women.

But the complaints you make at the same time about men not playing the part as well as women: that should tell you volumes. But instead of seeing it for what it is: a difference in sexes, women tend to see it as a moral lapse.

I am what I am. I am a moral person. I'm a great dad. But how good a dad I am has nothing to do with, and could have nothing to do with, how well you facilititated a 'birth' experience.

~faith,

Timothy.

Jolie, BSN · Mar 31, 2006

So how many points do I lose for saying that, as a dad, I could have easily done without the IP, and for that matter, PP experience. Of course that isn't an option, because apparently us guys are socially outcasted 'cads' if we don't particularly want to swap 'labor' stories like women often do (and I work w/ women, so I know darn well how often that comes up.)
I love my kids dearly. But, they 'grew' on me. I went through the motions when they were wee small, but for all of them, it was somewhere in the 4-6 month range before I cared more about the process as a function of being a dad as opposed to taking my 'turn'.
I guess most women are equipped emotionally thus that they cannot understand that. And, I suppose that's a good thing.
But be mindful of this minority (or not so minority) point of view: by pushing the whole IP/PP on guys, you are, at least sometimes, pushing YOUR values on them as opposed to being an advocate to the 'experience'.
And how can they do anything else but play the part you scripted for them? To me, it was nothing short of moral arm-twisting.
And what do we get for it: constant complaints that we aren't 'involved' enough in a process that is, essentially, foisted upon us. 14 yrs later, I still hear about the 30 min break I took in a 'down' period before active labor out of a 14 hr experience.
I did point out that it is a minority view. But, I doubt it's a rare one.
And I understand where the idea comes from. Women are instinctually geared to treat newborns and the whole experience as divine. So, it's unthinkable that you could conceive that the same might not be true for men. And so, you act 'AS IF' it were universally true of men as well as it is women.
But the complaints you make at the same time about men not playing the part as well as women: that should tell you volumes. But instead of seeing it for what it is: a difference in sexes, women tend to see it as a moral lapse.
I am what I am. I am a moral person. I'm a great dad. But how good a dad I am has nothing to do with, and could have nothing to do with, how well you facilititated a 'birth' experience.
~faith,
Timothy.

Wow Timothy! Are we reading the same thread?

I am not in any way bashing a man's respectful participation (or lack thereof) in the birthing process. My own hubby could have been at Joe's Bar and Grill, for all I cared. I was much more interested in the whereabouts of my OB and the nurse bearing the narcotic keys.

I understand the point of this thread to be the discussion of interventions aimed at getting fathers involved in the financial support and upbringing of their children, something I don't doubt you actively participate in.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Mar 31, 2006

Wow Timothy! Are we reading the same thread?
I am not in any way bashing a man's respectful participation (or lack thereof) in the birthing process. My own hubby could have been at Joe's Bar and Grill, for all I cared. I was much more interested in the whereabouts of my OB and the nurse bearing the narcotic keys.
I understand the point of this thread to be the discussion of interventions aimed at getting fathers involved in the financial support and upbringing of their children, something I don't doubt you actively participate in.

I understood it to be a thread about using the birth experience to formulate a transformation in men that would eventually lead to active support of the child.

And I'm not being confrontational, but controversial. If you want a discussion about ideas, I was merely offering a different POV.

Personally, I think there is NOTHING a nurse can do IP/PP to foster greater support from a father. Guys, I don't think, are geared to look at a newborn and have the same rush of 'transformation' as women.

IMO, the guy is either going to be the same kind of stand up guy - or not - as they otherwise would have been, regardless what kind of IP/PP experience they have. A 'dirtbag' just isn't going to have a 'transformative' experience like that.

I was only suggesting that you don't color your perceptions as a nurse from a strictly woman POV and assign moral judgment when men can never live up to that standard. As opposed to women, I just don't think we're wired that way.

And for the record, if your husband HAD been at Joe's Bar and Grill, you'd of NEVER let him forget that. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Everytime you said 'Remember when . . .' - Joe's Bar and Grill would instantly come into his mind. . .

~faith,

Timothy.

Kelly_the_Great · Mar 31, 2006

Hello... :)

Well, this is a very interesting topic!

I think it kind of correlates to the phenomena of maternal role attainment; only are there any studies out there involving paternal role attainment?

I have to kind of agree with Timothy that I think a lot of our attitudes regarding men's involvement is more so based upon presumption through the lens of the maternal patient's experience which may not necessarily run parallel to that of the father's.

I think there are differences between the way the mother and the father approach parenthood and I don't really think there is a great body of knowledge as to what the father's approach/feelings is/are, particularly within the immediate period of IP and PP.

I like Jolie could've cared less if my husband had been in L&D with me. Some ppl purport to really feel a lot of encouragement, having the FOB perform as a coach. I myself, would've been happy with a leather strap to bite down on and the permission to amb. - so I could find a place to squat - but the epidural did just fine, I guess. That was just my experience though.

I'm taking a family course right now in my transition program and pretty much all that they say about dad's involvement is "don't forget dad - he's part of the process too." Okay...what part though? How do we involve him? Is it forced involvement? And is it even beneficial?

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Mar 31, 2006

I'm sure the plurality of men involved in the IP/PP process view it positively. I'm not sure how much of that is intrinsic values or assimilating the values 'expected' of them.

I'm maybe more aware than most of my feelings and self confident enough in my own morality that I can view the experience for how I felt it, without feeling 'guilty' about it. But then, I'm advantaged by the fact that being a male nurse many times requires me to separate role expectations from role realities.

A good deal of the roles people play in such situations are based largely on 'perceptions' about HOW those roles should be played, in any case. That is exactly how and why funerals happen the way they do: they are carefully planned and designed to walk people through the process in a socially acceptable manner.

And the whole 'men in the birthing room' paradigm is similar: it's no more morally right or wrong then the old days of waiting for the midwife/doc to come out and annouce to dad in the waiting room whether he has a boy or girl . . .It's a social process designed to grant some stability to situations that would otherwise invite a whole range of emotional responses.

So, I'm not really complaining that men (or me specifically) are now expected to be at the birth. That's fine, as far as it goes.

I just want to differentiate between 'expected' roles and 'transformative' roles. The birth of a child is indeed transformative for a woman. Not just in her new roles, but because women are designed to have that special 'ohhhhh, ahhhhhh' towards babies.

But just because a guy is now 'expected' to play a part doesn't mean that they also inherit the 'transformation' that may or may not be a part of their make-up.

In the effort to expand/create this 'transformation' for men, I am merely advocating caution in making moral judgments. If such a goal is maybe too lofty, that doesn't, per se, speak to the morality of the men involved.

And it certainly doesn't speak to how well a dad they will be. That has to do with a moral/instinctive makeup that I just don't believe can be routinely so drastically changed by one event. And I have serious doubts that nurses can plan for or seriously implement/facilitate such a transformation, in any case.

~faith,

Timothy.

Jolie, BSN · Mar 31, 2006

And for the record, if your husband HAD been at Joe's Bar and Grill, you'd of NEVER let him forget that. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Everytime you said 'Remember when . . .' - Joe's Bar and Grill would instantly come into his mind. . .

~faith,

Timothy.

Now I'm the one laughing. I actually told him he could leave. I knew how miserable I was making him (and everyone else within earshot)! It was my mother who firmly ushered him back into the room, unfortunately before the nurse arrived with the narcotics! :lol2:

Selke · Apr 1, 2006

I'm glad you started a thread to discuss this topic.
Let me start off by clarifying one thing: the mention made above about fathers being most likely to accept responsibility for their children during the birthing process refers to financial responsibility. It was the conclusion of a study done a number of years ago and cited by state officials who were advocating a policy of having hospital staff approach unwed fathers during mom and baby's hospital stay and ask them fill out paternity papers establishing the father's financial obligation to the child. This was deemed necessary because of the large number of unmarried women having children who ended up on welfare due to lack of support from their babies' fathers, and the difficulty and expense involved in tracking fathers down and proving paternity for the purposes of financial support.

Yes, thanks for clarifying what the emphasis of the study was - financial responsibility. I do wonder about what can be done to help foster more than financial responsibility in dads by staff -- if anything, as Timothy points out down below ...

Let me illustrate the extent of the problem: At one hospital where I worked, it was not unusual for a man to father multiple children by multiple mothers, often within a short time frame. Since many of the mothers were young, and uneducated, they often relied on welfare to support themselves and their children. It was customary (in this area) for the MOTHER to give a portion of her welfare check to the FATHER, thus reducing the amount of money she had to support herself and her baby. Since some fathers had multiple children by different women, they supported themselves on these "payouts". They convinced the women that this was the "right" thing to do, since the women would not be receiving welfare money had they not become pregnant. So, tax-payer money intended to support young mothers and children went, in part, to able-bodied deadbeats who were literally taking food money away from their children. No wonder state officials decided that SOMETHING had to be done to stop this!
What I found to be particularly sad was the situation described above, where the father of the baby is present during labor, but has his attention focused on phone calls and visits to his current "girlfriend", not the mother of the baby. These poor new mothers often seemed satisfied that he showed up at all, or brought a pack of diapers or an outfit, perhaps the only "support" he would ever provide his new child.

Jeez, we must have worked at the same hospitals! This happened all the time in Chicago. Some might say this behavior is probably characteristic of certain socioeconomic classes, but if you look at those silly celebrity magazines, celebrities behavior can be just as irresponsible and pathological, so it's not just SES. This is very sad. One place I did agency work at there was a regular influx of drunk, nasty older men traipsing up to look at a baby he said was "his," and he'd be so proud of himself. Then he'd ask if we could do a paternity test to make sure it was his. I felt so sorry for these beautiful little babies. (OK, my middle class values popping in, but I don't think repulsion at this is just a middle class value.) I connected with the moms as well as possible, was as positive as I could be, but there's little one can do in L&D with a young woman who has a lifetime of being used by these men.

It is refreshing that you are trying to take this to a higher level, seeking interventions that may help fathers bond to their infants and promote greater involvement throughout childhood. I am curious to know what interventions are helpful in teaching young women self-respect, as well, so that they stop accepting such crummy treatment by their "men".

Exactly! I try to talk to them as much as feasible after delivering, but L&D is not the place to try any interventions -- about all one can do is make a social service referral. That's one reason I want to be a midwife, so I'll have my pts over a longer period of time and can establish a relationship with them. I hope many of them grow out of this type of relationship, but by the time they might, they've already got several children ... How can one teach self-respect? Or plant the idea in a young impressionable mind? I think back to things nurses and others have said to me that have stuck, and these people probably had no idea what they said had an impact on me. Sometimes pts tell me afterwards I said the right things to them that helped them.

I know these issues are part of much larger social, economic, political, gender issues in society that aren't going to be solved. I like to improve on what small interventions I might be able to do when I'm at work, which sparked the question raised about that study about father's responsibility. At the heart of it, I think if you really care about or love your patients that will get communicated and will influence them more than anything else. That's what influences me -- people who care about me. For me, most existential questions wind up in religion for resolution. I try to approach my work as my practice, and cultivate compassion. Sometimes I kind of succeed ....

Selke · Apr 1, 2006

So how many points do I lose for saying that, as a dad, I could have easily done without the IP, and for that matter, PP experience. Of course that isn't an option, because apparently us guys are socially outcasted 'cads' if we don't particularly want to swap 'labor' stories like women often do (and I work w/ women, so I know darn well how often that comes up.)
I love my kids dearly. But, they 'grew' on me. I went through the motions when they were wee small, but for all of them, it was somewhere in the 4-6 month range before I cared more about the process as a function of being a dad as opposed to taking my 'turn'.
....
I am what I am. I am a moral person. I'm a great dad. But how good a dad I am has nothing to do with, and could have nothing to do with, how well you facilititated a 'birth' experience.
~faith,
Timothy.

Timothy,

You're bringing up another issue. Not all men can, or want to, be at the birth. Not everyone knows what to do or how to be there for a woman having a baby. That's OK. Of course one can be a wonderful father but not be thrilled at the birth, and even be scared of the newborn! I think a lot of men, and women, are like that. The long haul is what matters, and this was part of what the thread is about .. how can one help a young man make the leap from getting the girl pregnant, to real manhood, which is loving and raising the child? You are right to bring up the fact maybe the birth experience isn't the place to do that for all men. We inpatient nurses probably can't do much to help foster this relationship, but maybe there are some interventions that can help before hospital discharge.