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Here is a question I have been pondering. Is someone who has their license as a LPN/LVN considered to be a real nurse? How do most Helthcare professionals view LPN/LVN? When I get my LVN license will I be a nurse?
I know it says nurse in the title... licensed vocational nurse..... but are you considered by your colleagues to be a nurse? Does hospital administration consider the LPN/LVN to be a nurse? When you go out in public and someone asks what you are, do you say your're a nurse? Or do you say your an LPN/LVN?
Just thought I'd get it straight from the horses mouth :)
I'm attending school right now where they have a LVN program and I am so excited about it. Everyone in my class is striving to get into the program next year. But I keep hearing my mother say about someone else..... "Oh shes just a PRACTICAL nurse." As if the job the woman was doing wasn't important.
Thanks for any replies. You know how hard it is to get those repeating mother tapes out of your head. :chuckle
With all of the discussion about who "deserves" better pay or "does the same job" as someone with another title, I think we're losing sight of how a healthcare organization/business looks at all of us.
The reality is, hospitals don't pay people based who works the hardest or who has the best skills or knowledge. People are not necessarily paid for what they "know" rather than "do" either.
This is why you end up with resentful people who feel that they do a better job every day than someone who gets paid more than they do based on things that have little to do with actual performance.
The reality is that hospitals do indeed financially reward people with more education, whether or not they actually use it and apply it at work every day.
They also reward people who have all of their paperwork in order when it comes to evaluations as far as mandatory meetings and continuing education classes go. People are also rewarded for brown nosing and getting others into trouble.
This is why some of the worst nurses we've ever worked with in our lives end up getting promoted or receive the highest raises.
It's not about who deserves what or who works the hardest or who helps contribute to better patient outcomes.
It's about playing the game.
I graduated from LPN school in 2000. I have always been told by my instructors " A NURSE IS A NURSE" it is true. As an LPN I know I have more clinical than some of the RN's. Infact most of the RN's come to me with questions about clinical procedures, ect. I get told by my peers, RN's that I should go to nursing school for my RN. Yes in time I would like to, but I'm adjusting to the responsiblities I have now. In time I will further my education, but right now I'm happy and learning new things everyday!
Now about hospital administration, that is a horse of a different color. I got hired as a GPN, for a telemetry floor, d/t the nursing shortage, Eventually the hospital started recruiting, and hiring travelers, and bringing in forgein nurses. With the new hiring, my job changed over a year time. I went to go get and IV narcotic for one of my patients and the pyxis wouldn't let me get it, they programed it for IV meds to be taken out by RN's only. I felt that it was very degrading to me and my abilities, and making my patients suffer ie with pain and to find an RN to get it and admister it. I felt like an over paid pca. If each facility would let us work up to our practice act, the RN's work load would be lessened. I only work per diem with that facility. I now work in the ER. The ER physicians and RN's appreciate my skills. One of the attending physicians told me when ever there is a code i want you by my side, he told me my clinical skills are excellent better than some of the RN's. I think that is a great compliment.
I sometimes have a problem, with the "newer" GN/RN's. I dont think they know how to use us to the best of our ability. I think its also cause they are not "seasoned" and unsure of themselves, but I tell them hey we were all there at one time or another. They get overwhelmed cause they have to "cover us", and thier patients. There needs to be a better way of staffing us without degrading us.
oh by the way.....
I tell them Im a "Nurse", if they ask LPN or RN, I say I'm proud to be LPN.-
I work in an APCU (as a unit secretary for now), and I know we have several LPN's that are definitely considered nurses!!! They have to have RN backup for some responsibilities, but for the most part, they carry their own patients totally, and no one thinks of them as anything less than real nurses! One has been an LPN for 20 years and is now just starting to get her RN, and the other just finished her associates' degree RN program, but got her LPN when she finished the first 2 blocks of the program, and is continuing to work as an LPN until she takes her NCLEX. I am glad I work where LPN's are treated with respect, because I plan on taking the same path as my friend...get my LPN when I complete the first 2 blocks, and continue for my RN, so I can start doing patient care!
I graduated from LPN school in 2000. I have always been told by my instructors " A NURSE IS A NURSE" it is true. As an LPN I know I have more clinical than some of the RN's. Infact most of the RN's come to me with questions about clinical procedures, ect. I get told by my peers, RN's that I should go to nursing school for my RN. Yes in time I would like to, but I'm adjusting to the responsiblities I have now. In time I will further my education, but right now I'm happy and learning new things everyday!Now about hospital administration, that is a horse of a different color. I got hired as a GPN, for a telemetry floor, d/t the nursing shortage, Eventually the hospital started recruiting, and hiring travelers, and bringing in forgein nurses. With the new hiring, my job changed over a year time. I went to go get and IV narcotic for one of my patients and the pyxis wouldn't let me get it, they programed it for IV meds to be taken out by RN's only. I felt that it was very degrading to me and my abilities, and making my patients suffer ie with pain and to find an RN to get it and admister it. I felt like an over paid pca. If each facility would let us work up to our practice act, the RN's work load would be lessened. I only work per diem with that facility. I now work in the ER. The ER physicians and RN's appreciate my skills. One of the attending physicians told me when ever there is a code i want you by my side, he told me my clinical skills are excellent better than some of the RN's. I think that is a great compliment.
I sometimes have a problem, with the "newer" GN/RN's. I dont think they know how to use us to the best of our ability. I think its also cause they are not "seasoned" and unsure of themselves, but I tell them hey we were all there at one time or another. They get overwhelmed cause they have to "cover us", and thier patients. There needs to be a better way of staffing us without degrading us.
oh by the way.....
I tell them Im a "Nurse", if they ask LPN or RN, I say I'm proud to be LPN.-
Are you working in PA?
If so, the LPN practice act in PA does not allow LPN's to administer ANYTHING via IV push, so you're hospital that previously allowed you to do it could have set you up for something bad to happen.
Do I think it's right to have such a restrictive practice act for LPN's?
Heck no, they give IV push narcs in TX all the time and patients are not getting hurt over it. The difference here is, it's legally covered in TX.
In PA, it's not.
Also, do your best to be patient with the new GN's/RN's. They are still trying to find their way and their inability to utilize LPN's correctly isn't necessarily their fault.
Most seasoned RN's will tell you that they received very little education in their programs about LPN practice and their role in health care, particularly in the acute care arena.
Many new RN's probably couldn't tell you even a basic overview of the state LPN practice act and what LPN's in the state are allowed to do, let alone facility policies.
You can't effectively delegate to someone who's scope of practice is something that you're still not familiar with.
Of course they are real nurses. I was an LPN for 2 years before i got my license as an RN. I was able to do almost everything that RN's could do. I just needed the RN to cosign my narcotics, and i also needed 2 RN's to cross-check the blood before i hung it.
When i was an LPN, people would make remarks such as: "You are just a graduated Nursing Assistant", or "LPN's are supposed to give enemas" or "You are just an LPN, i demand an RN"!
Well, i had to work very hard for my license and also protect it too, just like an RN would! HELLO!!!
I often had to orientate new RN's at my job and please believe they left before their orientation was over because "it was too much for them to handle"
You will be a real nurse. Just be the best that you can be. :)
As long as LPN's are recognized by the Board of Nursing, i really could care less what anyone else is saying. Please consider them as being "Ignorant".:rotfl:
A lot of the programs in MN for LPN's have waiting lists till like 2010 or something - it's because since it's so hard to get into an RN program, nearly impossible here...they figure they go for the LPN and then go right into an LPN-ADN bridge program. Of course you have to have 6 mos expereince as an LPN there as well. It would seem that we're all aiming for RN- I don't know anyone who is just sticking with LPN.
2010???? WOW...geez...
when asked which kind of *nurse* i am, "rn or lpn?"...i just say, "both!" i held my lpn license nine years before i sat for my rn & i'd worked darn hard to obtain both licensure. i maintain both licenses for that very reason. i hold both licenses in nj & pa & according the those sbons, it's perfectly legal to hold both. for example, when working part-time/per-diem agency, i rather work as a lpn; & when i work full-time, i work as a rn. i feel comfortable working as a lpn agency because a) i know my practice act as a lpn & know my limits...working ten plus years as one i ought to know...& b) i only will work step-down or assisted living as an agency lpn. i don't want the responsibility of agency rn yet...don't feel as comfortable being utilized as a critical care nurse at facilities i"m not familiar with...perhaps in time...but not now.
and yes....there *is* a difference between lpn/rn responsibilities! the difference is plan & simple....it's not just the knowledge as cotjockey & rn34tx pointed out
i disagree with lpns who say they do the same thing as rns for less money. it may seem that way and often the lpn's job is physically more demanding than the rns, but rns do deserve more money. often, people are hired and paid for what they know not for what they do. i'm not saying that lpns are stupid or anything, but the rns should be paid more...they went to school for a lot longer, they have more responsibility, and their licensing exam is more extensive. it is just like cnas who think they should be paid as much as lpns since they "do more." their job may be more physically demanding, but they don't have the education or knowledge base that lpns do.
i look at patient care as a team effort...there is no rn work or lpn work or cna work...all of it is patient care...there are things that i can't do as an lpn, there are things that cnas can't do, there are things that rns can't do, but in the overall scheme of things, the patient gets what they need...
...it's the *licensure* period.with all of the discussion about who "deserves" better pay or "does the same job" as someone with another title, i think we're losing sight of how a healthcare organization/business looks at all of us.the reality is, hospitals don't pay people based who works the hardest or who has the best skills or knowledge. people are not necessarily paid for what they "know" rather than "do" either.
this is why you end up with resentful people who feel that they do a better job every day than someone who gets paid more than they do based on things that have little to do with actual performance.
the reality is that hospitals do indeed financially reward people with more education, whether or not they actually use it and apply it at work every day.
they also reward people who have all of their paperwork in order when it comes to evaluations as far as mandatory meetings and continuing education classes go. people are also rewarded for brown nosing and getting others into trouble.
this is why some of the worst nurses we've ever worked with in our lives end up getting promoted or receive the highest raises.
it's not about who deserves what or who works the hardest or who helps contribute to better patient outcomes.
it's about playing the game.
i'd held my bsn for nearly six month before sitting for the nclex-rn (i took the kaplan online course first as it was recommended by one of the facility professors at my university (tju)....it seems quite a few numbers of lpns have a hx of failing nclex-rn the first time out & my professor supported this fact with literature. this seem to happen because lpns tend to answer nclex questions based on their *real-life* experiences instead of answering them based on the *nclex-rn world.*) anyhoo...my employer at that time (chop) said it was *nice* that i held my bsn, but it didn't mean diddly swat for more money! i was at the ceiling salary wise as a lpn...& my working nine plus years didn't mean diddly once i'd obtained my rn licensure either. i left there & went over to (penn-presby...part of hup health system) & was still brought-in as a clinical nurse level i (cn i - new to practice nurse!). and what they mean by new to practice nurse is new to practice *rn!*...they do have lpns working at this facility...they work med/surg & other areas...but i don't know how lpns are classified regarding cn status. i'm going to inquire monday & come back & let you all know.
anyhoo...this is true for most facilities in southern pa & south nj...orrgh! since i'd worked as a lpn for nine plus years during all sorts from med/surg to icu in the army to primary care in pediactrics...i'd figured i'll start my *new to practice nurse* position in the icu. everyone has to go through a four week critical care course & three month orientation at my facility no matter what. they didn't care that i'd already had icu experience as a lpn because they don't recognize that because they don't have lpns working critical care there. they also don't care that i & some other applicants (who graduated from upenn...their school of nursing where we all went for the critical care course...go figure!) had a critical care course while still at university either. they make everybody go through their on the job critical care course...even other rns who've worked years there in another area...if they're working anywhere outside of critical care...they have to take the critical care course & get oriented with a preceptor for five months now (can you imagine having five whole months of on the job training & not be counted as a primary nurse!!!)
my facility just started the five month orientation because many nurses don't stay past that first year mark after starting critical care. they either transfer out to non critical care areas or they simply leave for other hospitals for better pay/sign-on bonus. unfortunately, our facility has lost lots of money this way. if they're willing to spend thousands of dollars educating & training critical care nurses, then they should at least have the orientees sign some sort of contract which states they will give back "x" amount of time before leaving with the exception that if said orientee can't cut the mustard...etc.
anyhoo...getting by to the subject at hand....yes lpns are real nurses & don't let anyone tell you any different! good luck in school & can't wait to read your future posts regarding your nurse position!
cheers,
moe
rn43tx, thank you for your feed back. I think you miss read what i meant. Yes I do pactice in the state of PA. I do not give IV push meds, nor would I. It is against my nurse practice act. There have been RN's that tell me to do it, and I tell them "against my practice act" The point i was making was, hospital administration is making it harder for the LPN/RN relationships. Blocking the pyxis to get IV narcotic, only "RN" can doesnt make sense. Alot of times I feel like a hinderance than a help to the staff and patients, due to the restrictions. I would just wish that they would make a "National Practice Act" for all the LPN's.
For the GN/new RN's I am very patient with them. Sometimes too patient with them. I have to scratch my head when one comes up and asks, "what is colace?". That is such a basic drug.So I tell them what it is. I try and give them confidence with their skills also. Give kudos when needed, and a hug if over whelmed.
With the "seasoned RN's", I find they know my practice act better than me sometimes. The "newer" nurses dont understand the "can an can nots" of my nurse practice act. Then they get upset, and make a fuss. I try to explain to them, but too overwhelmed with the other tasks to understand. I have worked with alot of great RN, they are my role models. They know my scope of practice and talents in other areas as in IV"S starts, lab draws, If they cant get an IV, and I have a patient that needs IV push meds, we would swap tasks. Isnt that what "team work is about". "RN/LPN" team of nurses.
rn43tx, thank you for your feed back. I think you miss read what i meant. Yes I do pactice in the state of PA. I do not give IV push meds, nor would I. It is against my nurse practice act. There have been RN's that tell me to do it, and I tell them "against my practice act" The point i was making was, hospital administration is making it harder for the LPN/RN relationships. Blocking the pyxis to get IV narcotic, only "RN" can doesnt make sense. Alot of times I feel like a hinderance than a help to the staff and patients, due to the restrictions. I would just wish that they would make a "National Practice Act" for all the LPN's.For the GN/new RN's I am very patient with them. Sometimes too patient with them. I have to scratch my head when one comes up and asks, "what is colace?". That is such a basic drug.So I tell them what it is. I try and give them confidence with their skills also. Give kudos when needed, and a hug if over whelmed.
With the "seasoned RN's", I find they know my practice act better than me sometimes. The "newer" nurses dont understand the "can an can nots" of my nurse practice act. Then they get upset, and make a fuss. I try to explain to them, but too overwhelmed with the other tasks to understand. I have worked with alot of great RN, they are my role models. They know my scope of practice and talents in other areas as in IV"S starts, lab draws, If they cant get an IV, and I have a patient that needs IV push meds, we would swap tasks. Isnt that what "team work is about". "RN/LPN" team of nurses.
I was just reading another thread, can't remember the title now, but it reminded me of my response to you.
It had something to do with delegation and several nurses commented that they had very little education on delegation of duties to LPN's or unlicensed personel in their RN programs.
Sorry, for some reason I was reading that you were pushing meds in PA, must have misread your post.
Regarding pyxis: So you as an LPN are blocked from obtaining narcotics from pyxis....what if you were giving it IM instead of IV? Is it not the same vial of narc whether IM or IV?
I know that IV is the more predominent method of giving meds, but if it were to be given IM, would you have to get an RN to get it out of pyxis for you?
If so, there's something wrong with that system.
it's the *licensure* period.i'd held my bsn for nearly six month before sitting for the nclex-rn (i took the kaplan online course first as it was recommended by one of the facility professors at my university (tju)....it seems quite a few numbers of lpns have a hx of failing nclex-rn the first time out & my professor supported this fact with literature. this seem to happen because lpns tend to answer nclex questions based on their *real-life* experiences instead of answering them based on the *nclex-rn world.*) anyhoo...my employer at that time (chop) said it was *nice* that i held my bsn, but it didn't mean diddly swat for more money! i was at the ceiling salary wise as a lpn...& my working nine plus years didn't mean diddly once i'd obtained my rn licensure either. i left there & went over to (penn-presby...part of hup health system) & was still brought-in as a clinical nurse level i (cn i - new to practice nurse!). and what they mean by new to practice nurse is new to practice *rn!*...they do have lpns working at this facility...they work med/surg & other areas...but i don't know how lpns are classified regarding cn status. i'm going to inquire monday & come back & let you all know.
anyhoo...this is true for most facilities in southern pa & south nj...orrgh! since i'd worked as a lpn for nine plus years during all sorts from med/surg to icu in the army to primary care in pediactrics...i'd figured i'll start my *new to practice nurse* position in the icu. everyone has to go through a four week critical care course & three month orientation at my facility no matter what. they didn't care that i'd already had icu experience as a lpn because they don't recognize that because they don't have lpns working critical care there. they also don't care that i & some other applicants (who graduated from upenn...their school of nursing where we all went for the critical care course...go figure!) had a critical care course while still at university either. they make everybody go through their on the job critical care course...even other rns who've worked years there in another area...if they're working anywhere outside of critical care...they have to take the critical care course & get oriented with a preceptor for five months now (can you imagine having five whole months of on the job training & not be counted as a primary nurse!!!)
my facility just started the five month orientation because many nurses don't stay past that first year mark after starting critical care. they either transfer out to non critical care areas or they simply leave for other hospitals for better pay/sign-on bonus. unfortunately, our facility has lost lots of money this way. if they're willing to spend thousands of dollars educating & training critical care nurses, then they should at least have the orientees sign some sort of contract which states they will give back "x" amount of time before leaving with the exception that if said orientee can't cut the mustard...etc.
anyhoo...getting by to the subject at hand....yes lpns are real nurses & don't let anyone tell you any different! good luck in school & can't wait to read your future posts regarding your nurse position!
cheers,
moe[/i]
yes i know it's about the licensure. i was stating that it was education because many hospitals do financially reward rn's who have a bsn (in most cases, it ain't much!) as well as promote people to higher positions based on degrees and education with less emphasis on actual performance.
many are running around hospitals with fancy titles and degrees, yet their performance doesn't reflect it.
hospitals don't see it that way. they want the license and/or degree for whatever positions are available, in addition to whether or not someone is a friend or relative of a higher up who will provide a great reference. that's what's important to them.
like you, when i started work as an rn, i moved to a hospital with a "clinical ladder" program with everyone labeled a level i, ii, iii, iv, etc. and got no recognition whatsoever for my lpn/lvn experience.
i started as a "level 1" along with other new grad rn's who did nothing more than work at "the gap" or in other non-health care fields prior to becoming an rn. i was also paid the same as them.
it was both insulting and frustrating at times, but i had bigger goals in mind so i've stuck with this place.
when i still had both an rn and lvn license, i looked into what you are doing now.
i called the tx board, hoping to do some med/surg lvn agency work while orienting to icu as an rn, but they told me that i'd still be held to an rn level of accountability whether i worked as an lvn or cna for that matter.
so i scraped the idea. i wasn't willing to work for lvn wages and be held to rn accountability.
i'm greedy like that.
flashpoint
1,327 Posts
I disagree with LPNs who say they do the same thing as RNs for less money. It may seem that way and often the LPN's job is physically more demanding than the RNs, but RNs do deserve more money. Often, people are hired and paid for what they KNOW not for what they do. I'm not saying that LPNs are stupid or anything, but the RNs should be paid more...they went to school for a lot longer, they have more responsibility, and their licensing exam is more extensive. It is just like CNAs who think they should be paid as much as LPNs since they "do more." Their job may be more physically demanding, but they don't have the education or lknowledge base that LPNs do.
I look at patient care as a team effort...there is no RN work or LPN work or CNA work...all of it is patient care...there are things that I can't do as an LPN, there are things that CNAs can't do, there are things that RNs can't do, but in the overall scheme of things, the patient gets what they need...