Are CNA's considered "Nurses"?

leslie :-D · May 27, 2004

this is a very tough topic for all of us. i truly believe anyone who says it's not isn't being true to themselves.
i'm an lpn. proud to be an lpn. i am knowledgeable and capable. however, i do not believe any one else to be "more of a nurse" than i simply because they went to school longer or less of a nurse than i because they went to school less time than i.
yes, cnas and mas are not licensed nurses, but that does not mean they are not a nurse. this is what merriam webster has to say on the subject. the docs who call their cnas and nas nurses are not wrong!
"main entry: 1nurse
pronunciation: 'n&rs
function: noun
etymology: middle english, from old french nurice, from late latin nutricia, from latin, feminine of nutricius nourishing -- more at nutritious
1 a : a woman who suckles an infant not her own: wetnurse
b : a woman who takes care of a young child:
drynurse
2 : one that looks after, fosters, or advises
3 : a person who is skilled or trained in caring for the sick or infirm especially under the supervision of a physician
4 a : a member of an insect society that belongs to the worker caste and cares for the young b : a female mammal used to suckle the young of another
definition #3 is the one i have been referring to. and scope of practice is not an issue if instructed by the md (or other) to perform this prcedure, if you are confident in your abilities then there is no problem. however, i wouldn't want to perform a procedure if i didn't know how it affects the pt both advantageously and adversely.

those definition sound quite antiquated. furthermore, the boards of nursing do not recognize nursing assistants as nurses, nor do any nurses i know. nursing assistants and medical assistants are absolutely not nurses, period.

missmercy · May 27, 2004

I guess I would not count on Webster's definition to save my hind quarters in a court of law!! My mom nurtures and cares for people in their homes -- takes them chicken soup, helps them set up their meds and bathes them -- she is not licensed or certified -- just a good hearted lady who knows how to help make sick people feel better -- that does not make her a nurse!!!! And she would NEVER dream of saying that she is one!!!! When most people say nurse I think they are typically referring to a licensed person -- nurse's aids have training and yes may even be certified, but that is a totally different ball game legally than licensure!!! If a person is saying that they are a nurse and they do not hold a nursing license, they are misrepresenting themselves and doning the nursing profession a huge disservice!! No, additional years of education and a license do not necessarily make a person a better nurse, but it does ensure a minimal level of expertise and a measure of accountability! BTW, just because you are operating under the training of a doc does not mean you are not legally culpable for your actions -- acting outside your state's nurse practice act is illegal regardless of who tells you to do so!!!

Dixiedi · May 27, 2004

I guess I would not count on Webster's definition to save my hind quarters in a court of law!! My mom nurtures and cares for people in their homes -- takes them chicken soup, helps them set up their meds and bathes them -- she is not licensed or certified -- just a good hearted lady who knows how to help make sick people feel better -- that does not make her a nurse!!!! And she would NEVER dream of saying that she is one!!!! When most people say nurse I think they are typically referring to a licensed person -- nurse's aids have training and yes may even be certified, but that is a totally different ball game legally than licensure!!! If a person is saying that they are a nurse and they do not hold a nursing license, they are misrepresenting themselves and doning the nursing profession a huge disservice!! No, additional years of education and a license do not necessarily make a person a better nurse, but it does ensure a minimal level of expertise and a measure of accountability! BTW, just because you are operating under the training of a doc does not mean you are not legally culpable for your actions -- acting outside your state's nurse practice act is illegal regardless of who tells you to do so!!!

The nurse who is confined by the nurse practice act and the nurse who can call herself a licensed nurse are those who graduatd from a approved school of nursing and passed the NCLEX (I've been a licensed nurse for 30 years and only met one nurse who was grandfathered in - formal education not required - and that was at the first hospital I worked with out of school.) Those who nurse without the education and licensing procedure are no less nurses! The practice act in every state I have worked in is somewhat vague. It can be interpretted a number of ways. Those who are not licensed nurses are not bound by the nurse practice act UNLESS he/she claims to be a licensed nurse. Then he/she is claiming to be something he/she is not and are then involved in working outside the nurse practice act.

It would be nice if a couple of representatives from the BON in a state or two would respond here. I know I am correct but can offer no further proof.

leslie :-D · May 27, 2004

The nurse who is confined by the nurse practice act and the nurse who can call herself a licensed nurse are those who graduatd from a approved school of nursing and passed the NCLEX (I've been a licensed nurse for 30 years and only met one nurse who was grandfathered in - formal education not required - and that was at the first hospital I worked with out of school.) Those who nurse without the education and licensing procedure are no less nurses! The practice act in every state I have worked in is somewhat vague. It can be interpretted a number of ways. Those who are not licensed nurses are not bound by the nurse practice act UNLESS he/she claims to be a licensed nurse. Then he/she is claiming to be something he/she is not and are then involved in working outside the nurse practice act.
It would be nice if a couple of representatives from the BON in a state or two would respond here. I know I am correct but can offer no further proof.

yes, that is a grand idea about BON responding. better yet, i think you need to contact your BON yourself because you have been grossly misinformed.

CA CoCoRN, RN · May 27, 2004

I am a new nurse but was a CNA for 15 years before going to school. I was never referred to as a nurse when I was a CNA. I recently went to work in a Doc office where the CNA refers to herself as a Nurse and all of the office personelle refer to her as a nurse. She does everything that I do. I was suprised at this. I have since found that many Doc offices utilize CNA's as nurses. Is this a new thing? I don't want to sound caddy but it just kind of seems like my blood, sweat and tears I put into Nursing school was for nothing if a CNA can do my job. Please don't think this is a smack to CNA's because I have much respect for them as I was one myself for so many years. I would just like to hear some opinions.

A CNA is NOT a nurse...just as a PA is NOT a physician. I am very "elitist" when it comes to that. She/he did not have the training I have, and did not sit for the exam that I sat for to EARN my license. He/she is not licensed to perform the duties, nor the assessments that I have the right/scope of practice to perform. According to our state Nurse Practice Act, she/he can be prosecuted for holding him/herself out to be a nurse. It's called "practicing nursing without a license". This is one topic I will fight to the death on. It was my sweat, energy, studying, drive to be what I am...anyone else who didn't go through the hoops that I had to should not (does not deserve to) call him/herself a NURSE. That title is reserved SOLELY for those who have licenses to practice nursing.

*back to reading*

missmercy · May 27, 2004

Ya'll haven't been readin ghte posts in this forum (many threads on different topics.)
Another assumption:stone

leslie :-D · May 27, 2004

A CNA is NOT a nurse...just as a PA is NOT a physician. I am very "elitist" when it comes to that. She/he did not have the training I have, and did not sit for the exam that I sat for to EARN my license. He/she is not licensed to perform the duties, nor the assessments that I have the right/scope of practice to perform. According to our state Nurse Practice Act, she/he can be prosecuted for holding him/herself out to be a nurse. It's called "practicing nursing without a license". This is one topic I will fight to the death on. It was my sweat, energy, studying, drive to be what I am...anyone else who didn't go through the hoops that I had to should not (does not deserve to) call him/herself a NURSE. That title is reserved SOLELY for those who have licenses to practice nursing.
*back to reading*

there's not even an argument here, and nothing to defend. it's black and white, clear and simple, and easy to uphold. the BON will tell her in no uncertain terms if she really wants to know.

SCRN1 · May 27, 2004

this is a very tough topic for all of us. i truly believe anyone who says it's not isn't being true to themselves.
i'm an lpn. proud to be an lpn. i am knowledgeable and capable. however, i do not believe any one else to be "more of a nurse" than i simply because they went to school longer or less of a nurse than i because they went to school less time than i.
yes, cnas and mas are not licensed nurses, but that does not mean they are not a nurse. this is what merriam webster has to say on the subject. the docs who call their cnas and nas nurses are not wrong!
"main entry: 1nurse
pronunciation: 'n&rs
function: noun
etymology: middle english, from old french nurice, from late latin nutricia, from latin, feminine of nutricius nourishing -- more at nutritious
1 a : a woman who suckles an infant not her own: wetnurse
b : a woman who takes care of a young child:
drynurse
2 : one that looks after, fosters, or advises
3 : a person who is skilled or trained in caring for the sick or infirm especially under the supervision of a physician
4 a : a member of an insect society that belongs to the worker caste and cares for the young b : a female mammal used to suckle the young of another
definition #3 is the one i have been referring to. and scope of practice is not an issue if instructed by the md (or other) to perform this prcedure, if you are confident in your abilities then there is no problem. however, i wouldn't want to perform a procedure if i didn't know how it affects the pt both advantageously and adversely.

yeah, here's one of the other many words that have more than one meaning, but are you telling me that they are the same also? like with a leaf...a leaf that falls from a tree is the same kind of leaf that holds the table together from the middle? try doing that & the table will fall!

main entry: 1leaf

pronunciation: 'lef

function: noun

inflected form(s): plural leaves /'levz/; also leafs /'lefs/

usage: often attributive

etymology: middle english leef, from old english leaf; akin to old high german loub leaf

1 a (1) : a lateral outgrowth from a plant stem that is typically a flattened expanded variably shaped greenish organ, constitutes a unit of the foliage, and functions primarily in food manufacture by photosynthesis (2) : a modified leaf primarily engaged in functions other than food manufacture b (1) : foliage (2) : the leaves of a plant as an article of commerce

2 : something suggestive of a leaf: as a : a part of a book or folded sheet containing a page on each side b (1) : a part (as of window shutters, folding doors, or gates) that slides or is hinged (2) : the movable parts of a table top c (1) : a thin sheet or plate of any substance : lamina (2) : metal (as gold or silver) in sheets usually thinner than foil (3) : one of the plates of a leaf spring

- leaf-less /'lef-l&s/ adjective

- leaf-like /'lef-"lik/ adjective

RN34TX · May 27, 2004

Sounds like I exposed a raw nerve, eh? Well, just keep studying, get your RN, maybe an MSN, and let me know how you feel then...bottom line...there is no longer room in health care today for minimally prepared providers. An RN should be the bare minimum for nursing practice, and all titles referring to a nurse less than an RN should be eliminated. Ancillary staff, preferably, would be EMT's or Paramedics, who come prepared with a broad, and expansive set of skills, most usefull IN the hospital setting. Lastly, attack the message, not the messenger, hon...

"Get your RN.....and let me know how you feel then..." I've heard that before when I was an LPN. I did get my RN, now how am I supposed to feel? I thought I'd feel different because people like you kept telling me that, but it didn't happen.

A joint commission inspector once gave me that same attitude and I wasn't understanding where he was coming from. He walked into the ICU and asked me "How many nurses are working in here today" I told him 6. He said, "NO, you have 4." I insisted that we had 6 nurses working. He corrected me again and said "you have 4 nurses and 2 LVN's, that's not 6 nurses."

I was thinking to myself--is he mathematically challenged?

Then he asked me, "Under what circumstances can an LVN replace an RN?" So I told him that if we are short an RN we will float an LVN from another unit, etc.. then he snapped at me and said "The correct answer is never. An LVN NEVER replaces an RN!! You should be floating other RN's into this ICU, why are you using LVN's?" So I told him that I needed people whose skills best matched the patient population. These LVN's can manage ventilators, read rhythm strips, manage and titrate cardiac drips, they can't push cardiac meds but they still were a great help to the ICU. It just made better sense than trying to float in RN's from other specialties, say Rehab, psych, or even Med/Surg for that matter as many Med/Surg RN's are very shaky about vents and heart monitors and can't read strips. That was not a slight to RN's in those specialties but they just would have a harder time trying to work ICU.

As polite and thorough in my thinking as I tried to be, he just wasn't hearing it. We did not receive any type of deficiency as the LVN's in our ICU operated within their scope of practice, that was just his opinion on using LVN's in the ICU. I wished he would have kept it about state and joint commission guidelines and kept his opinion to himself as it didn't do him or us any good, LVN's are still used in that ICU.

The point is, you can't reason with people who who put all their stock into titles and level of education while turning a blind eye to actual skills and knowledge needed in a given setting. Maybe they will change their mind one day when they are the patient in an ICU that doesn't allow LVN/LPN's to work there but would gladly float an RN there with no ICU needed skills simply because they are an RN.

Another thing I don't understand is how you would prefer "Ancillary staff" to be EMT's but LPN/LVN's wouldn't be a good enough level of training for you? Could you explain that logic to me?

KriseeLPN · May 27, 2004

You are right...just like the N in CNA....and the N in NA....and like the N in NT....a CNA and a LPN just doesn't cut it anymore; get over it....feel slighted? that's on you...get used to it :stone

CNA = Certified (not licenced) Nursing ASSISTANT (NOT NURSE)

NA = Nursing Assistant (not nurse)

NT=Nursing Tech (not nurse)

LPN= LICENCED (LICENCED LICENCED LICENCED ) PRACTICAL NURSE

AS AN LPN THE ONLY THING I AM NOT ABLE TO DO (BASED ON SCOPE OF PRACTICE) IS PUSH IV MEDS, CHEMO, AND HANG BLOOD PRODUCTS

I am not a wanna be as you call us, but a trained, educated member (licenced just like the RN) of the Healthcare field. I do not only hand out certain medications as you say, but insert foleys, give injections, assessments, wound care (and no not just a band-aid) end of life care, emotional support and much more.

So yes it is offensive when you come in hear and say an LPN is a wannabe. WE ARE NURSES

tmiller027 · May 28, 2004

CNA's, NA, LPN....need to go by the way side....safe care comes from broadly "educated" and "trained" RN's and ARNP's. The time has come to eliminate so-called caregivers who's only training is how to do a BP, change a diaper, d/c an IV, and administer a limited amount of drugs. The times are a changin', and the need for poorly prepared wannabees is ending. What we need is to increase the standards, require that ALL health care providers take the same pre-reqs as a pre-med, pre-nursing, pre-PA...after the pre-reqs are met, one may choose the MD/DO route, nursing route, Paramedic route, PT route. This will place ALL on the same playing field, and eliminate further discussions about who is better prepared, better educated, better trained, etc. The only differences, in the end, may be compensation, but what you choose, after your pre-reqs, should not get in the way of having earned the respect and privilege of a well educated and trained health care provider.

And here I thought he only picked on CNAs

Tim (a wannabe)

kids · May 28, 2004

Actually no, the CNA is really superior to me in the eyes of the management there. They consult her on all nursing questions without giving me a second thought.

To me this is far more scarey than the CNA calling her self (and being called ) "Nurse". I would be actively looking for another job.