Anyone have any experience with anesthesia assistants compared to CRNAs ?

Sheri257 · Jun 30, 2005

:chuckle Nope, we've actually had a number of RN's go through the AA program. They usually do very well. It will be interesting to see if the RN applicant #'s go down with the 2nd CRNA school in Georgia opening in Macon. One of the CRNA's in my group resigned to help with that program.

Actually, of 157 people who have gone through the program since 2000, only four of them were nursing majors, according to Emory's website. There's been more psychology and liberal arts majors than nursing majors.

http://www.emoryaaprogram.org/admission%20reqs.htm

:coollook:

jwk · Jun 30, 2005

Actually, of 157 people who have gone through the program since 2000, only four of them were nursing majors, according to Emory's website. There's been more psychology and liberal arts majors than nursing majors.
http://www.emoryaaprogram.org/admission%20reqs.htm

That represents about one per class - probably about right. But the program has been in existence for almost 30 years prior to 2000, so my statement that "a number of RN's" have gone through the program is accurate.

Peachy720 · Jul 3, 2005

Amen, the anesthesia forums dedicate an awful lot of space to people who even haven't GONE TO NURSING SCHOOL YET! And they "know" they want to be a CRNA. Let's make it the final statement on these boards, which are supposed to be CRNA's conferring with other CRNA's, if you think you want to be a CRNA, go to AANA.com. It's all there. Please demonstate that you have enough competence to do your research before you start with the questions.

Wow.

Here I thought AllNurses.com was about people who have a passion for nursing--whether they're just getting started or have retired after 65 years--can get together. Also, if this isn't supposed to be an information sharing message board, why does Brian have so many wonderful options (the Nursing Student Assistance Thread, First Year Nursing, etc.)?

I agree that if someone is interested in CRNA, they should do their research (if nothing else, the sticky at the top of this forum is a great starting point). However, it really makes me bristle to think that just because I do not have a CRNA title that I am not welcome in this part of the forums.:uhoh21:

To the rest of you, I'd like to thank you for your informative posts. I've posted maybe once in this forum, but visit it at least several times a day, trying to find out everything I can about this profession.

lashbyccrn · Jul 3, 2005

What about the countless long hours that the CRNA has already spent as an RN. Its not like the CRNA is new to nursing/medicine. I havent heard of any CRNA programs that accept a new RN with out any experience. I imagine there is more hours in AA programs because these people are starting from scratch with only some pre med classes and a BS in GOK (God only knows) :smiley_ab

I would like to know how they calculate their hours. For example, I remember jwk stating some time ago that AAs need 2000 hours or something like that. However, are these hours spent at the hospital, or hours doing anesthesia? You can't count lunch, breaks, time between cases as actual anesthesia hours. I know that when SRNAs calculate their hours (at least in my program, I have to assume it is the same at others), we have to use the start time and end time. Basically, I cant go in at 6am and leave at 5pm and claim 11 hours for the day. You have to go by the case times.
edited to correct 200 to 2000 - mistyped:-)

jwk · Jul 3, 2005

What about the countless long hours that the CRNA has already spent as an RN. Its not like the CRNA is new to nursing/medicine. I havent heard of any CRNA programs that accept a new RN with out any experience. I imagine there is more hours in AA programs because these people are starting from scratch with only some pre med classes and a BS in GOK (God only knows) :smiley_ab

Start from scratch clinically? Some do, most don't. And let's not pretend that a BSN represents four years of clinical nurse education only. There's plenty of non-science stuff in there, just like with most bachelor's degree programs.

And the requirement of having a year of critical care experience for CRNA programs is relatively new, and the master's degree requirement not much older than that. There are thousands of non-degreed, certificate-only CRNA's out there providing outstanding anesthesia care, including many that I work with every single day.

allnurses Guide · Jul 3, 2005

Start from scratch clinically? Some do, most don't. And let's not pretend that a BSN represents four years of clinical nurse education only. There's plenty of non-science stuff in there, just like with most bachelor's degree programs.
And the requirement of having a year of critical care experience for CRNA programs is relatively new, and the master's degree requirement not much older than that. There are thousands of non-degreed, certificate-only CRNA's out there providing outstanding anesthesia care, including many that I work with every single day.

I like to say that the prerequisites for CRNA seem to be considerably more than the AA program. I have been preparing for years (about 5 to be exact) to get into CRNA school. The one year requirement for critical care experience is atleast 5+ years old. The Master's degree requirement is even older than that. CRNA school is the most competitive nursing program there is. Every successful applicant that I know has had atleast 2+ years of critical care, an excellent academic background, and most now have their CCRNs. I would like to see someone applying to AA school w/o a medical background try and take the CCRN!

I have a lot of misgivings about AAs, but I have never worked with any. Nurses have been doing anesthesia from the beginning and actually were giving anesthesia before MDs. Nurses and doctors used to be educated along side each other in giving anesthesia. I am sure the AAs are here to stay. I ,also think that AAs will always be tied to MDs/DOs. Where CRNAs are eventually going to become completely independent providers. Both are an honorable profession, but I will stick with my CRNA if I have a choice.

georgia_aa · Jul 3, 2005

I have a lot of misgivings about AAs, but I have never worked with any.

I haven't posted here in awhile but I find this thread and comments like the above very interesting. The title of this thread is "Anybody have any EXPERIENCE with AA's compared to CRNA's?". Not one single poster and certainly no one making disparaging remarks about AA's has had any experience whatsoever working with us and yet everyone's quite certain that we suck. If anyone were interested - look at some of the other very long threads about AA's (like the one where I set off a firestorm last year) and the VERY few CRNAs who posted with real experience working side by side with AAs had generally good things to say about us. Both JWK and myself, as well as 100% of the AA's out there have worked with CRNAs. I think we have said mostly positive things about what most CRNA's bring to the table skillwise. Again, these comments are based on years of experience working side by side with your colleagues. All of your comments about us are based on innuendo and supposition. If you ever had a chance to see an AA in action, I think most of you would be very surprised by our level of knowledge and skill relative to a CRNA. Furthermore, I would maintain that you would not be able to tell the difference between the two.

Also to echo what JWK said, the vast majority of AA students do enter the program with real clinical experience. The current class that just started in June has RTs, EMTs, PTs, a perfusionist, and several other misc. healthcare relateds. No forestry or PE majors in the bunch.

Have a great 4th! Me - I'm on call :crying2:

allnurses Guide · Jul 3, 2005

This sounds just like an NP vs. PA debate. I have lots of friends that are PAs and lots that are NPs. There is definetly a different mind set in how they see pts, but the overall results tend to be the same.

Before I posted my comments about AAs I did take the time to review the websites http://www.anesthetist.org and Case Western University's website.

I do look forward to having a civilized face to face discussion with an AA one of these days, though.

Good Luck on Call!

I'll be at work too....lol.

gaspassah · Jul 3, 2005

Where CRNAs are eventually going to become completely independent providers

we alreaday are. crnas can provide anesthesia in all 50 states without supervision of mdas. again, supervision requirement in medicare part A billing just states that a Physician (podiatrist, opthamologist, etc) must request the anesthetic, and are in no way responsible for the anesthetic nor must they make a note on the anesthetic record, at discharge the surgeon must clear the patient surgically the crna must clear the patient form anesthesia.

d

allnurses Guide · Jul 3, 2005

we alreaday are. crnas can provide anesthesia in all 50 states without supervision of mdas. again, supervision requirement in medicare part A billing just states that a Physician (podiatrist, opthamologist, etc) must request the anesthetic, and are in no way responsible for the anesthetic nor must they make a note on the anesthetic record, at discharge the surgeon must clear the patient surgically the crna must clear the patient form anesthesia.
d

I should have been more clear. I know in the Air Force our CRNAs still have to have their H&Ps signed off by a Surgeon or anesthesiologist, atleast that was how it was at my last base. It seems pretty minor, but there were certain surgeons that didn't want to sign off on the CRNAs H&Ps. Since my last base ended being an all CRNA shop it became an issue for awhile.

mwbeah · Jul 3, 2005

I should have been more clear. I know in the Air Force our CRNAs still have to have their H&Ps signed off by a Surgeon or anesthesiologist, atleast that was how it was at my last base. It seems pretty minor, but there were certain surgeons that didn't want to sign off on the CRNAs H&Ps. Since my last base ended being an all CRNA shop it became an issue for awhile.

Just wanted to clear up your misinformation on H&Ps. Regulation 40-68 defines the CRNA scope of practice. MDAs do not have to "sign off" our H&P. If your facility is doing that, then it is a local policy in your department. I know that no one "signs off" on my H&Ps. I do provide a courtesy "heads up" to our LTC (MDA) for ASA III and IVs, but then again we have a great team where information and communication flows well.

Autonomy in the military is second to none as a CRNA, thats one of the benefits.

Mike

macanes, BSN, MSN, DNP, CRNA · Jul 10, 2005

I'll have to put it this way: The number of cases you do in training -- after a certain point -- might be irrelevent. When you're in a CRNA training program (I went throught the Army program), after your first year of didactic, you get MORE didactic. But, more importantly, you spend darn near every day in the OR and you don't leave until all the cases are finished.

We looked at our minimal number of cases as an administrative marker, such as, "Ok, you made the B . . . now you've got to make the A+." It passed almost without our knowing it.

All of that said, comparing the AA and CRNA case requirements in training is not -- I say politely, thank you -- a valid comparison of the education value of the programs. I have seen several posts on this thread about the experience of BSN nurses prior to their entry into the CRNA program. To me, that is the primary argument. I know that I frequently fall back on my CCU/ICU experience during crisis. It has served me in good stead.

Additionaly, the training provided me by the Army CRNAs (and some MDAs) in my program was invaluable. I have little experience with AAs beyond relieving them for lunch breaks when I was moonlighting while still in the Army. I will say that some where darned lacidasical (sp?) in setting up a cart for a big case and I let them know it, but I have also seen that problem with CRNAs and especially some MDAs.

So, comparisons in practice are individualized (isn't everything), and comparisons in training aren't comparable . . . just my opinion.

John Zitzelberger, CRNA

Ft. Benning, GA

now a proud civilian

OK, I have a question. This is not meant to add fuel to the fire that already exists, so if you can't give me a straight and honest answer to a serious question, don't bother replying.
I've been reading a bit on AAs and I've seen (I don't know if this iss true or not) that AAs are required to do almost 2x the number of cases during training as CRNAs. I understand that "most" CRNAs do much more than just 450 cases (so why don't we up the requirements?) but their training is roughly the same length. How does this work? Less didactics? Seriously, because I think that CRNAs should have to do MORE cases during training if they're going to get more respect. I think that possibly we could adapt CRNA training to (in SOME ways) be more like AA training in order to get more clinical training in. Not at the expense of important classwork or course. That's why I'd like to know the difference in training.