Any point in fighting NA requirement?

all_over_again · Aug 25, 2010

Thank you, Michael. It is a very thoughtfully written paper.

michigooseBSN · Aug 25, 2010

I've heard GOD also referred to as "Group Of Drunks" and "Good Orderly Direction". Neither of these have any reference to a deity. I have a sponsee who is a UU minister. I am an Episcopalian. I asked her one day if it made her uncomfortable when I refer to God when we talked since her higher power isn't "God". She replied "No it doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. I just hear it as 'higher power'." So why not try that? You might also try AA rather than NA. Many recovering alcoholics are also recovering addicts. In fact, at my three meetings a week for the past 18+ years, I know many who call themselves just addicts and are very welcome at the meetings. I refer to myself as both alcoholic and addict but my alcohol use was still "in control" when my drug use and diversion clearly wasn't. However, I think a drug is a drug is a drug. So I claim both. Good luck.

kayce20 · Aug 26, 2010

just wanted to say that AA (which you can do in place of NA), just asks that you be willing to believe in a power greater than yourself. For example you can use your group, or your AA support system ,just the belief that you need something more than you to help you get through this time. You dont have to conform to anyone elses views about God or whatever. Hope this helps :) and i am new in this journey too...i have found that AA is a better fit for me even though my main addiction was drugs

all_over_again · Aug 28, 2010

My deepest fear is that my sponsor will throw me under the bus. I can go along with the non-religious interpretations but I cannot deal with a sponsor who expects me to "work the program". Ick.

jackstem · Aug 29, 2010

My deepest fear is that my sponsor will throw me under the bus. I can go along with the non-religious interpretations but I cannot deal with a sponsor who expects me to "work the program". Ick.

Everything I'm about to say is intended to help you get over this "hump" that is self imposed. It's not meant as an attack, criticism, or to be "mean". Unfortunately, addicts in early recovery are "emotionally sunburned" and have a tendency to get PO'd and defensive when they hear or read something that isn't what they wanted to hear. I was no different and can still fall into old behaviors whenever I'm not "working my program", and when I'm experiencing one or more of the 5 categories that can lead to relapse: H.A.L.T.S. (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, Stressed (Sick/Stupid/Silly).

As long as you continue to focus on the "Ick", you will have a very difficult time reaping any benefit from the Experience, Strength, and Hope that is offered and shared during a 12 Step meeting.

When I was in treatment the first time (yes, the first time), I did exactly what you're doing. I never used cocaine, so I wasn't like those "cocaine addicts". I never used marijuana, so I wasn't one of those "marijuana freaks". I got drunk twice, the first time I drank after high school graduation and the one bachelor party 5 years later, so I wasn't like those "alcoholic idiots". Never did methamphetamine, heroin, or any other illegal drug. I was a former ER nurse, and was now a CRNA. I was only using the wastage at the end of the day, or keeping the medications I intentionally "over ordered", so I wasn't really stealing drugs from a patient. It finally became clear to me I couldn't possibly be an addict! So, I "played the game", jumped through their hoops, and said exactly what they wanted to hear in order to get out of treatment and get back to my career and my family. I knew I wasn't an addict or alcoholic (I didn't believe it was the same disease at the time although we know today that it is, just a different "drug of choice". I almost committed suicide (interrupted by someone no one had ever seen before or since he interrupted my plan before I could complete the plan...he did leave a big dent in a locker in L&D which others saw, so I know I didn't hallucinate) and almost died from an accidental OD (my 4 year old found me apneaic).

How well did my plan work? Well, I no longer have a license (voluntarily surrendered because I knew if I continued to prove everyone else wrong, I'd end up in prison or the morgue...or both), which means I obviously don't provide anesthesia any longer (I just pass gas as a hobby now!), I have 3 felonies on my record, could have done 8 years in a federal penitentiary, and paid thousands of dollars in fines. I'm divorced, have no pension and no health insurance. I'm in the process of building a consulting/education/advocacy business that everyone wants to take advantage of but doesn't want to have to pay for the services (I just got fired, I can't pay any fees...but can you help me anyway? Which I do to a point because I don't want someone dying because they are an addict and don't want to do the hard work it's going to take to get into and remain in recovery). If I could go back knowing what I know now, I would do whatever I was told to do in order to "get" recovery and hopefully keep my marriage, license, and profession (I'd at least have the serious money I lost because I was bullheaded and knew I wasn't like "them").

You are following the exact same path I was until my life sucked so bad I was willing to try anything! Including "working the program". It's not necessary for you to lose almost everything in order to find recovery. You can find a sponsor who is spiritual and not religious...IF you stop looking for and obsessing on every little thing that can be remotely construed as some how "religious" and then using that as an excuse to "not work the program".

There is much to be had from people who attend AA and/or NA programs if you'll look for the similarities. I understand that you're an atheist or an agnostic. Fine...focus on the non-religious interpretations and work the non-religious form of the program. Keep looking for other recovery groups, but until you get out of the monitoring program, continuing to focus on all of the negatives of 12 step groups required by the BON will only hinder your progress toward a solid and stable recovery...and could also seriously screw up your ability to regain an unrestricted license. As they say in 12 Step groups...take it one day at a time. Eventually you'll put enough 24 hours together to find that you finished the monitoring program, that you have your license back, and then you can define and follow your own recovery program.

Focus on what works...PERIOD. Do that and you'll get through this. Don't and we'll be reading about further sanctions due to a relapse, or worse, someone will tell us the link to your obituary.

I've never met you, but I love you because you are facing the same fecal matter in your life that I was, and I don't want to see you lose everything like I did before realizing I didn't have the answers and needed to surrender and follow the path that others were pointing out to me. These were people who were always present at the meetings I attended but never saw or heard because I was so hung up on all of the differences that don't matter! They had what I wanted, so I did what they were doing. Guess what, I've been clean and serene for 5,633 days since that decision was made. The same can be true for you!

Big Hugs my friend! :hug: Hang in there!

Jack

michigooseBSN · Aug 29, 2010

My deepest fear is that my sponsor will throw me under the bus. I can go along with the non-religious interpretations but I cannot deal with a sponsor who expects me to "work the program". Ick.

That's easy. Choose a sponsor who doesn't judge your form of spirituality. I've heard it said "look for somebody who has what you want and ask him/her to be your sponsor". That's what I did and it worked fine. My sponsor had her higher power in nature, not a deity at all. And as I've said, I'm a practicing Christian. But I didn't need a "religious" sponsor, just an AA sponsor who was spiritually connected to her higher power. And of my 4 sponsees, three of them do not practice any sort of formalized religion and one is a Unitarian/Universalist minister. I don't have any problem working with them and their higher powers. So go find a sponsor that can accept you and your atheism/agnosticism and help you get into recovery. There are many of them out there. Good luck.

all_over_again · Sep 2, 2010

After 3 and a half years of sobriety, I am so ready to put that chapter behind me and just live my life. I wanna be the master of my fate and the captain of my soul! :rolleyes:

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 5, 2010

I'm probably going to be very unpopular in this thread, but I have different advice for you than the others. "Don't drink the koolaid." Yes, you can beat the NA/AA requirement. I'm from Louisville also and I did it. A year ago, my case went in front of the credentials panel and that was removed from my contract for the same reasons you are protesting it. I, also, am an atheist. I was told that I was the first nurse in our state and possibly the country to manage that.

You're exactly right in that even prisoners cannot be forced to attend twelve step meetings. AA/NA have been found by the supreme court to be essentially religious programs and according to the US constitution, religion still can't be mandated in this country. And regardless of how it's worded and how many chapters in the big book state otherwise, when four out of twelve steps directly contain the word god, it's a religious program. I was told the same things you've been told in this thread..."god of your own choosing, just pick something for a higher power, yadda yadda".

Those things don't work for me for several reasons.

1. I AM the highest directly influential power in my own life.

2. You're asking me to turn my sanity over to some random inanimate object (like the door knob that someone even suggested)?

3. Powerless is NOT an attribute I will claim. If anything, lack of using my power is what got me into trouble to start with regarding drugs. It was my own power that made me able to put it down and my very real power that enables me to make the choice every day to stay sober.

For some people, 12 step programs obviously have the ability to get them where they need to be, but when it comes to point blank statistics, they are dismal. AA currently has a 5% longterm (greater than five year) success rate. Spontaneous recovery rates for people using no assistance of any kind to stop drugs/alcohol are also 5%.

Call me a non-conformist perhaps, but I do not believe in a disease concept of addiction for myself. I make no claims as to anyone else's issues. For me, I used drugs because I used very poor judgment and character. There was no uncontrollable compulsion to get high. I have a diagnosis of PTSD resulting from long term sexual assault as a child and getting wasted was easier than dealing with the me that I'd lived with sober. I also have bipolar 1 disorder and was very guilty of self-medicating. What got me clean and keeps me clean is not some "higher power". It was coming to terms with the damage that was done to me years ago and learning to like myself. It was finally getting it through my head that mood disorders are much easier to control without adding unpredictable street drugs on top of it and that if I DIDN'T get that through my brain, I was going to die and soon. It was looking at my now 21yr old son and realizing the hell I put him through as he was growing up and also looking at my now 10yr old and 12 yr old children still at home and realizing that I was destroying them in the process too. It was and still is a painful thing to face. I've been clean for about 2.5 years. The relationship between my oldest son and I is just now starting to really develop into a healthy one.

Ahh, I'll get off my soapbox now. Just realize that there are a whole myriad of ways to sobriety, not just through 12 step programs. What it all boils down to is this: When you are ready to stay sober, you will. If you aren't ready, nothing in the world is going to keep you clean, not AA, not god, not yourself. It's just a matter of drawing the line and deciding when you've had enough pain.

All the best,

Grace

jackstem · Sep 6, 2010

By definition addiction is an obsession to obtain the drug of (no) choice when there is none, and the compulsive use until it's gone despite efforts to stop. Not all people with bad consequences as a result of substance misuse have the disease of addiction. But the research is very clear that there are significant alterations in brain chemistry and structure in addicts. Do we have more to learn? Absolutely. We don't have all the answers when it comes to cancer, but does that doesn't mean it's not a disease.

There comes a time when an abuser who is making poor choices about their use of mood altering substances crosses the line to addiction. At that point there is no more choice involved.

Treatment has some poor statistics depending on what your choice of "treatment" happens to be. If we treated diabetics, hypertensives, cancer patients and others with chronic, progressive diseases the same way we do those with addiction, we'd see similarly poor results. We wait too long, provide treatment that's not intense enough for too short a period of time with poor follow up (if any in many instances). I'll use my brother-in-law as a good example. He contacted me after 2 weeks of diarrhea that OTC and home remedies did not stop. I told him to go to his doc (he hated going to the MD). His doctor admitted him immediately after examining him (hepatomegaly, hypoxia with an O2 sat of 93% - he was 38 years old - and dehydration). This was at 4:00 pm on a Monday. He was dead on Thursday morning at 6:00 am. He died of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. This is an infection that can be treated with oral antibiotics if diagnosed in time. My brother-in-law's decision to not see a medical professional for such a long time was THE key in his unnecessary death. We do the same thing with addicts...we wait until they hit some mythical bottom. True bottom for an addict is death...period. This is why we do interventions. Time in a protected environment is necessary to allow the addict to detox and for their brain to begin to recover. It takes a minimum of 90 days of abstinence for the brain to begin to recuperate to the point where the person can begin to actively participate in their treatment, which includes learning the cues and triggers that can lead them to relapse, and to learn and practice new skills in dealing with the cues and triggers they can't avoid. All of this takes time which no one wants to take (the person with the addiction wants to get back to "normal" as fast as possible) or provide (such as insurance companies desiring only to pay for shorter treatment times).

Finally, a 5 year study published in the British Medical Journal in 2008 shows that physicians in 5 year monitored programs had significantly better incomes than any other groups studied. They state in the conclusion in the abstract that the programs followed "...provide anappropriate combination of treatment, support, and sanctions to manage addiction among physicians effectively."

Licensing boards have got to find a way for the professionals they are monitoring to have appropriate levels of support several times a week. Until non-12 Step groups begin to provide the same number of meetings as 12 Step groups, there are no real other alternatives.

So let me ask this question, what equivalent alternatives are there to replace 12 Step meetings? Equivalent means the large number of available meetings on a daily basis throughout the individual's area?

In my area there are 246 AA meetings per week inside the freeway that surrounds the city. There are 61 meetings per week in the area where the highest number if hospitals and the major university are found (that's 12 meetings for each square mile in the area known as pill hill per week). Are there that many non-12 Step support groups available each week in any area? I work with numerous nurses in recovery. One asked about meetings that were non-12 step based. I did an extensive search both online and by phone. One group she was really interested in was Women in Recovery. I contacted them and requested information regarding meetings in this nurse's area. It took 6 weeks to get any information from them. There was one meeting per week in our entire city. This nurse showed up religiously (pun intended) every week for 8 weeks. She was the only person there 6 out of 8 weeks! She became so frustrated that she stopped going and found a 12 Step meeting close to her work site, met several other nurses there and they started there own support group. My point is, it's so easy to rag on 12 Step groups, but where are all of the alternatives? Are they so anonymous they can't be found? 'm all for people doing what works for them. But complaining about the current support options without providing viable alternatives is pretty lame and can make recovery for some (notice I didn't say all) very difficult to achieve and maintain. It's great that you were able to "beat the system". How does that help nurses who actually do have the disease of addiction and need more than what the "alternatives" to 12 Step meetings are able to provide?

I know my opinion won't be popular with the minority here either, but after 20 years of watching colleagues lose everything, including their lives in too may instances, I want somone from the "minority" to begin providing solutions instead of just complaints or criticisms.

Jack

Yes, addiction IS a disease.

BlueSkiesForever · Sep 6, 2010

First off, I'm obviously not an addictions counselor or a doctor. That is why I said that for ME, addiction was not a disease. That being said, lets look at it further.

By definition addiction is an obsession to obtain the drug of (no) choice when there is none, and the compulsive use until it's gone despite efforts to stop. Not all people with bad consequences as a result of substance misuse have the disease of addiction. But the research is very clear that there are significant alterations in brain chemistry and structure in addicts. Do we have more to learn? Absolutely. We don't have all the answers when it comes to cancer, but does that doesn't mean it's not a disease.
There comes a time when an abuser who is making poor choices about their use of mood altering substances crosses the line to addiction. At that point there is no more choice involved.

Alcohol is a poisonous substance and we don't fully know how the body reacts to it. Of course, there are alterations to brain chemistry. However, alterations to brain structure have never been causally proven to be linked to alcohol abuse. Even the "genetic link" that was so loudly proclaimed in the 90s was later found to be a false conclusion, but that part of the story was suppressed quite well by the media, not posted on the front page of the times like the "proof" was posted. Fact is, we have yet to find a true proven biological link to addiction.

There is always a "choice". How many times have you heard addicts say how relieved they are to no longer have to structure their day around finding their drug of choice, hiding their usage, and living a double life? All of those things take planning. Planning takes a concrete and firm "choice". I made a conscious choice to crush those pills and track down a straw. I rarely drank because I didn't like the hangovers and the blahs, but when I had a drink, it was a determined decision to either buy a drink in a bar or to fix my own drink at home. It NEVER happened without me thinking about it first and deciding to do it. That constitutes a choice.

Using your own example, cancer is a disease. My ex mother in law just found out she has colon cancer. SHE had no choice. She did not make the decision to obtain colon cancer at all costs.

Going further in the analogy, lets use the gun to the head example. You've probably heard of it. I will make you drink two drinks, put a third drink in your hand and put a gun to your child's head with the admonishment that if you drink that third drink, I'll pull the trigger. You won't drink that drink, will you? You wouldn't if it were the fourth or the fifth. You would stop at whatever point I commanded. It's a choice. However, you can't stop yourself from having that cancer just because of that gun, can you? Or stop that diabetes, or that heart disease...

You are powerless over real medical diseases. You are not powerless when it comes to that gun, are you?

Compulsions and obsessions are behaviors, not physical attributes.

Treatment has some poor statistics depending on what your choice of "treatment" happens to be. If we treated diabetics, hypertensives, cancer patients and others with chronic, progressive diseases the same way we do those with addiction, we'd see similarly poor results. We wait too long, provide treatment that's not intense enough for too short a period of time with poor follow up (if any in many instances). I'll use my brother-in-law as a good example. He contacted me after 2 weeks of diarrhea that OTC and home remedies did not stop. I told him to go to his doc (he hated going to the MD). His doctor admitted him immediately after examining him (hepatomegaly, hypoxia with an O2 sat of 93% - he was 38 years old - and dehydration). This was at 4:00 pm on a Monday. He was dead on Thursday morning at 6:00 am. He died of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. This is an infection that can be treated with oral antibiotics if diagnosed in time. My brother-in-law's decision to not see a medical professional for such a long time was THE key in his unnecessary death. We do the same thing with addicts...we wait until they hit some mythical bottom. True bottom for an addict is death...period.

Then we have to stop teaching in 12 step programs that people are powerless over their actions and that they have to reach some kind of bottom. We have to start to enable people to take control and teach them that control instead of insisting they are victims of some medical disease that can only be cured by surrendering to a "spiritual" cure. We have to stop preaching that addicts are victims of some unfortunate disease that leaves them with no will power or self restraint. The willpower and restraint ARE there. The power IS there. The problem is that an addict will not use those resources until the costs of remaining addicted are higher than the perceived rewards. Humans do nothing in this life without getting something from it, some kind of benefit.

The benefit for me was the ability to escape from the voices in my head that were telling me I was a horrible person, that I didn't deserve better, that I really only deserved to die. I was rewarded by some kind of peace from those thoughts, even if only briefly. If I didn't find peace while conscious, I was rewarded by oblivion if I only did enough drugs. Not much of a reward really and one that came with some pretty severe costs for sure, but it was enough to keep me using for quite some time. One day, the costs were too high. I realized then and there that I had to not use anymore or I was going to die. I realized that instead of sticking a straw up my nose again, I might as well take a header off the closest skyscraper. It was going to end the same way anyway. I went to an AA meeting that same day and sat there listening to the speaker tell me that I was powerless, that I had no will over whether I used or not, that it was all some disease that I couldn't control and that my only chance was to turn it over to a god in which I certainly didn't believe. I went home and completely finished off every bit of what I had at home. It should have been enough to kill me twice. I woke up ten hours later craving more. I called my kids' father and told him not to bring them home for a week. Then, I locked myself in my apartment and spent three days in hard physical withdrawals before I was even able to leave my bedroom. I called my boss and told her what I had been doing and that I was going to be off for a while to get help. I sent an email to the BON outlining my usage. I knew that I had to take control and in order to do that, I had to set up some accountability measures for myself. I was NOT powerless. I did NOT have a disease. I had poor critical thinking ability, made some really stupid mistakes, exercised some really dreadful judgment and made some horrible decisions, but I had made a choice in all those actions. We have to stop telling people they had no choices.

...Until non-12 Step groups begin to provide the same number of meetings as 12 Step groups, there are no real other alternatives....

Agreed. However, until we stop treating 12 step programs as if they are the only option to getting sober (despite the fact that there are other treatment models out there with much better stats), there will be no real alternatives. When virtually every treatment center in this country buys into the 12 step plan, our courts even use it as punishment, and our licensing boards refuse to recognize any other route to sobriety, there is little room left for alternatives. They ARE out there. Smart Recovery, Rational Recovery and several others all have documented success rates, unlike AA/NA. And the simple fact remains that until we start treating the underlying causes of why people use alcohol/drugs, NO treatment plan is going to be very successful at helping people obtain true sobriety. As long as we continue to teach that addiction is an uncontrollable disease and that one is not responsible for being an addict, we cannot fix the problem. In our attempts to make people feel better about themselves, we removed the stigma of addiction to the point where it's almost socially acceptable because it's a "disease that you didn't have control over".

BTW, I didn't "beat the system". The BON has no right or authority to mandate my spirituality. I drop samples regularly just like everyone else, I still have to attend a peer group once a week, and I still have to see an addiction counselor. I have all the same restrictions on my license except that the BON cannot demand that I attend a religious program only because there are no secular ones available instead.

all_over_again · Sep 6, 2010

I believe that addiction is a disease. Like many other diseases, genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. Diabetes is a disease, yet many people pull the trigger with a lifetime of poor dietary choices and exercise habits. I have a genetic predisposition to addiction, and I made choices that allowed the disease to take hold.

I, too, took some offense at the "beat the system" comment. I realize that the board has every right to monitor my recovery, but I also believe the establishment clause gives me the right to refuse to participate in a religious activity as a condition for reinstatement of my license.

Regards and Happy Labor Day.

a_o_a

jackstem · Sep 7, 2010

I believe that addiction is a disease. Like many other diseases, genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. Diabetes is a disease, yet many people pull the trigger with a lifetime of poor dietary choices and exercise habits. I have a genetic predisposition to addiction, and I made choices that allowed the disease to take hold.
I, too, took some offense at the "beat the system" comment. I realize that the board has every right to monitor my recovery, but I also believe the establishment clause gives me the right to refuse to participate in a religious activity as a condition for reinstatement of my license.
Regards and Happy Labor Day.
a_o_a

No offense intended and I apologize for that. But if the system is requiring something (whether it's considered "religious" or something else), and you are able to get that something "dropped", then I consider that beating the system. If they required you to drop 5 urines a week and you got that changed to 3 or one, I'd consider that beating the system as well.

Diabetics, hypertensives, those with bipolar disorder, major depression, and most chronic diseases who do the bare minimum in regards to achieving and maintaining remission have far more complications than those who undertake the lifestyle changes necessary to give themselves the best shot at minimizing complications. There are those who have a severe form of any disease who will have a difficult course no matter how hard they work at maintaining remission. But there are also those who will have all sorts of problems because they won't make the lifestyle changes needed.

jack