Another question about nursing salaries

[EmeraldNYL]

Why do nurses think that nursing salaries are so terrible? Around my metropolitian area, new nurses can start at 25-27 dollars an hour. That is at least $50,000 per year. Conversely, many of my friends who just graduated with degrees in biology and chemistry are lucky if they are making $40,000 per year. In fact, many of them continued on to grad school because they couldn't even find jobs, and as a nurse I will certainly not have that problem. Granted, my friends who are engineers make more, but I don't think $50,000 is anything to grumble over. Yet, I have heard many nurses say that they are not paid comparable salaries to other college educated professions. I realize that nurses in rural areas don't make this much, but then just about all salaries are lower in rural areas than metropolitan areas. Please don't flame me, I'm just interested in hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions on this. Maybe I'm just naively optimistic because I'm still a student.

[llg, PhD, RN]

Originally posted by Susy K

llg,

Do you think as an advanced degree nurse, we might get paid more if we were employed by a NON healthcare facility? Like a business or corporation, but still in a leadership role, and functioning as a nurse?

In some cases, "yes."

In other cases, "no."

I've met some people who have done that and the results seem to be varried -- very dependent on the particular job and company. If the job has a lot of administrative responsibilities, then the pay seems to be higher. If the job involves more overseeing of patient care, they seem to pay "nurses salaries," in other words, comparable to what nurses make in health care institutions doing similar-type work.

As I have said in the past, I don't regret all my education and am happy with my job (most of the time). However, I do think the whole compensation system is out of whack.

Sometimes, I am happy that I am not paid more. If I were to get a big raise, they would expect more from me! e.g. Because I get paid for only 40 hours regardless of how many I work, I generally refuse to work more than 45 unless it is an emergency, etc. If they were paying me for extra hours, they would expect me to work more than 40 routinely, and I don't want that.

llg

[TYGGER]

I must say most of those, I have dealt with, in the management positions with advanced degrees do a very poor job and have forgotten being at the bedside. I was once told by senior RN staff member her thought on managers...those smart enough to be a manager are smart enough not to want to be one.

I was at a unit meeting with the chief nursing officer and her first comment was about how she was published "I wrote a text book on emergency nursing" and what her degrees were. We didn't care. She did not impress us at all. She once went to work in PACU on a very busy day and disappeared for over an hour, when asked where shewent when she got back she said she needed a break. No one else got a break that day and no one else got lunch. She completely trashed her credentials.

[Q.]

These types of stories gives me a headache.

My only woe with things like this is to remember that no one is an expert at everything. Many advanced degree nurses may have forgotten about how to be at the bedside, but that not only is due to ever changing technology, but simply because, that is not where this advanced degree nurse's expertise lies anymore. It can't. It's just hard to do. I can't be good at publishing, researching, educating on a full time basis AND be proficient at the bedside AND be up on all the current literature AND....

do you see where I'm going with this?

It just plain sucks.

[Agnus]

Originally posted by EmeraldNYL

NP's don't make that much more than BSN's, but what about CRNA's or nurses who go into administration/management? And what's the solution to all of this anyway? Why are the administrative types STILL not listening when it is obvious that the "shortage" is turning into a crisis? Obviously something will have to change or we will have no nurses left! This is so frusturating.... :uhoh21:

I cannot speak for other places or other hospitals but nurising administrators at my hospital make less than they would make if they worked on the floor. Our DON in particulalr likes to constantly remind us of this. Yet, this person accepted the position and salary. This nurse would and will likely never work on the floor again. (Spent a short time in ER after graduation and went into administration) This DON is no advocate for nurses. ANd is no nursing leader only has self interest.

[llg, PhD, RN]

Originally posted by TYGGER

I must say most of those, I have dealt with, in the management positions with advanced degrees do a very poor job and have forgotten being at the bedside.

As I have always said, there are people with advanced degrees and advanced positions who are wonderful and there are those who are not. But also ... there are staff nurses who are wonderful and those who are not. You can find "good" and "bad" everywhere and at every level.

If you feel you could do a better job of running the place than the leaders at your current hospital, why don't you give a leadership position a try? It sounds like they could certainly benefit from your help. ....... or are you one of those people who just criticizes from the sidelines even though you have never tried to do the job yourself, have no experience with a leadership position yourself, and don't really know what it's like to "walk a mile in their shoes."

Just as it is not fair for someone in a leadership position to be overly critical of staff if they have never been in a staff position themselves, it is equally not fair to be overly critical of people in management positions if you have never tried to manage a unit.

llg

[Stargazer]

When I was a staff nurse, a number of my colleagues b*tched about how our managers--who had also come up through the ranks--had "forgotten what it was like" and "were a little too comfortable" in their cushy executive positions. I was pretty neutral on that point, and years later, when I went into an executive position myself, I saw that my instincts were right.

Most staff nurses have no idea what I do on a day-to-day basis. They have no idea that every time they have an urgent situation or question, odds are they're in line behind 19 others who have equally urgent matters or questions. They don't understand that they can't have everything they ask for because of budgetary issues or legal issues. They don't understand that I can make some decisions on my own, but some have to be run past a couple of VP's first. They don't understand that sometimes I didn't get back to them promptly because I was pulled into an all-day crisis management meeting with every damned VP, Director and Manager in the company.

And--to drag this back to the topic under discussion--they don't understand that, the corporate world being what it is, I am probably paid less than someone in an equal position in a more high-profile or revenue generating department, particularly if that other person is male. And the more I go back and try to prove that I can still roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty at the bedside, the more I am perceived as a glorified staff nurse insead of an executive, the less clout I have with senior management to request and get the things I need for the staff nurses, and the poorer an advocate I become for them. And then I really WOULD be useless as a manager.

[km rn]

Your wage as a professional nurse will also vary greatly with location. After 18 years of nursing I am now making 24.00 per hour.

I've also found that if you leave the hospital for clinic work, school nursing, some insurance jobs, etc. you have to take a substantial pay and sometimes benefit cut. Most of these jobs demand a nurse with recent acute hospital experience and other skills but want you to take a 10, 000 per year cut in salary because you won't be working holidays/weekends or may just be on call.

Yes, I am now making a comfortable living - however, my brothers both graduated with 4 year degrees in male dominated fields and make 2 - 3 times my annual income.

I realize that wage/benefits are the greatest expense most health care industries face BUT should a CEO make 6 - 100 times the wage of the workers?

It is also interesting that many health care providers offer health benefits that are worse than average.

I think teachers have done a good job with finally getting their salary issues in the public eye....we need to do the same.

[TYGGER]

I have worked with a great number of educators also who work as RN's on a casual basis and a full time as instructors, to make sure they are current. I understand that advance degree RN's can't keep up on everything but the few administrators I work with like to throw in our faces. I would love to get my BSN, MSN and be a ADN or BSN Prof. I just can't afford the pay cut.

A fiend of mine was working a 48/72 weekend position while goind to school, she is a RNP and was going to take a substantial pay decrease going into teaching at the local university, and she would have been great in that setting.

Back to thread; I have for the past 5 or 6 years made more (with OT) than my managers. I now make more than my manager who does put in at least 50 hours a week sometimes putting in 18hr days (8am to 4-5am then back for a 9 am meeting) with no OT. She is the manage of 3 units; ICU, ER and Cardioresp services, each of which was woefully mismanged prior to her arrival and thru no fault of her own continues to be but not on as grand a scale as previously.

[askater11]

My dh brought up this...I have no idea why. That women a more intelligent then men. (though it maybe true...he he he) His rational was because women are more likely to obtain a degree. I don't know where he got that...or if it's an actual fact.

I thought yes...come to think of that...in our group of friends he's absoluetly right. All my male friends have very little education. (none have an actual degree) They all make as much money as me. (or more)

Most of my g.f.'s have degrees and make significantly or slightly less our male friends.

Also my Uncle a Farmer from Canada couldn't believe nurses would be upset about how much we make. He asked me my salary. I wasn't afraid to tell him. My dh said for what she does in a day....and the responsibility a nurse makes....you'd think she'd make more. Then my dh discussed what he does in comparison and that he holds only a trademan card and makes $2 an hour more per hour.

[LilgirlRN, ADN, RN]

I've been a nurse for nearly 16 years and I don't make what the newbies are starting out at in Philly...now that really sucks!

[TYGGER]

At one point in time, with 5 yrs experience I was making 5% more than new grads....without my ICU diferential.

Are there any Er Rn's getting a differential like the ICU RN's get?

[altomga, ADN, BSN, MSN, DNP, RN, APRN]

Is money the root of all evil????? NOT! We have all worked hard, studied long hours, stressed over tests, lost out on a lot of "family time" and as registered nurses are expected to save lives, play miss neutral with family members, be social workers, patient advocates, nuture like a mother, be teachers, remain students forever (gotta keep up with technology, new drugs, new procedures, etc...) work holidays, weekends, long hours, extra shifts, on and on and on..any experienced nurse will get my drift! We are not just "a nurse" we perform multiple different types of jobs, but get paid SH*T for it. My starting salary was $14.76, no sign on bonus either! I work in a large university hospital with only small rural hospitals close by. The next comparable hospital is almost 3hrs away. Instead of paying their loyal, experienced nurses more money, they bring in more travelers, more foreign nurses (pay them moving expenses, housing allotments, etc!!!), and give a lofty $5,000.00 sign on bonus to new grads who start out at almost what I make now after 5yrs and climbing a clinical ladder 1x so far.

I would have to agree with almost every post here.....optimism is wonderful, but until you walk in our shoes you will never understand. Yes, your starting salary sounds great, in fact it's more than I make now even with night shift/weekend diff, but just wait until 2yrs from now and the new grads are making more than you and getting fat bonuses too. There is only a nursing shortage b/c people are seeing that although a personally satisfying career (mostly) it isn't worth it to live on financially when they can do something much, much easier.

Nurses aren't anything special right? We only save frickin' lives everyday!!! No thanks to the stupid interns!!! Oh yea lets give that tylenol IV!!!!

I do not mean to sound as if I am flaming you, but nurses getting paid what we are worth is a touchy, sore subject for probably all of us.

The fact of geographical area determining pay has absolutely nothing to do with it; it is the prinicipal that even you will see after you get working that you aren't getting paid what you are WORTH!!!!!!