Published
Socialized Health-Care Nightmare
Yuri Maltsev and Louise Omdahl
Dr. Maltsev gained his insight as an adviser to the last Soviet government on issues of social policy, including health care, and as a patient in the system. He teaches at Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Louise Omdahl, a nursing educator and manager, is actively involved in humanitarian assistance through nursing contacts in Russia and has visited numerous Russian health-care facilities.
In 1918, the Soviet Union's universal "cradle-to-grave" health-care coverage, to be accomplished through the complete socialization of medicine, was introduced by the Communist government of Vladimir Lenin. "Right to health" was introduced as one of the "constitutional rights" of Soviet citizens. Other socioeconomic "rights" on the "mass-enticing" socialist menu included the right to vacation, free dental care, housing, and a clean and safe environment. As in other fields, the provision of health care was planned and delivered through a special ministry. The Ministry of Health, through its regional Directorates of Health, would pool and distribute centrally provided resources for delivery of medical and sanitary services to the entire population.
The "official" vision of socialists was clean, clear, and simple: all needed care would be provided on an equal basis to the entire population by the state-owned and state-managed health industry. The entire cost of medical services was socialized through the central budget. The advantages of this system were proclaimed to be that a fully socialized health-care system eliminates "waste" that stems to "unnecessary duplication and parallelism" (i.e., competition) while providing full coverage of all health-care problems from birth until death.
But as we have learned from our own separate experiences, the Russian health care system is neither modern nor efficient.
In contrast to the impression created by the liberal American media, health-care institutions in Russia were at least fifty years behind the average U.S. level. Moreover, the filth, odors, cats roaming the halls, and absence of soap and cleaning supplies added to an overall impression of hopelessness and frustration which paralyzed the system. The part of Russia's GNP destined for medical needs is negligible 1and, according to our estimates, is less than 2.5 percent (compared to 14 percent in the United States, 11 percent in Canada, 8 percent in the U.K., etc.).
Polyclinics and hospitals in big cities have extremely large numbers of beds allotted for patients reflecting typical megalomania of bureaucratic planning. The number of beds in big cities would usually range from 800 to 5,000 beds. Despite the difference in average length of stay, less than one-half were utilized. In the United States hospital stays for surgery are three to seven days; in Russia stays average three weeks. American mothers typically leave the hospital a day or two after giving birth. New mothers in Russia remain for at least a week. It was explained that the length of stay was necessary due to unavailability of follow-up care after hospitalization. A physician was reluctant to discharge a patient before the majority of healing had occurred. In addition, there was no financial incentive for early discharge, as reimbursement was directly related to number of "patient-days, " not the necessity for those days.
Scarce Supplies, Inadequate Personnel
Supplies are painstakingly scarce-surgeries at a major trauma-emergency center in Moscow that we observed had no oxygen supply for an entire floor of operating rooms. Monitoring equipment consisted of a manual blood pressure cuff, no airway, and no central monitoring of the heart rate. Intravenous tubing was in such poor condition that it had clearly been reused many times. The surgeon's gloves were also reused and were so stretched that they slid partially off during the surgery. Needles for suturing were so dull that it was difficult to penetrate the skin. All of this took place in 95 degree F temperature with unscreened windows open; though the hospital was built less than twenty years ago, there was no air conditioning.
Utilization of medical/nursing personnel was very different from our model. The ratio of nurses to patients in the ordinary hospitals was 1 to 30, compared to 1 to 5 in the United States. Duties of the nurse ranged from housekeeping to following medical orders. When asked for her "best nurse," a head nurse in Moscow helped a young woman up from scrubbing the floor. Five minutes later she was practicing intravenous insertions with equipment donated by us. Both of these functions were in her "job description," however unofficial that may be. Nurses are unlicensed and are not considered an independent profession in Russia. As a result, all their duties are delegated, with assessment and most documentation completed by physicians. The education of nurses occurs at an age comparable to the last two to three years of American high school . 2 Nurses are educated by physicians, not other nurses. A separate body of scientific knowledge in nursing does not exist. The role of a patient advocate, heavily assumed by nurses in the United States was distinctly lacking in Russia. Nurses were subjugated to medical bureaucracy. Patients' rights and patients' privacy were all but ignored. There is no legal mechanism to protect patients from malpractice. To our amazement we were asked to photograph freely in patient-care settings without seeking patient consent. Patient education and informed consent were dismissed by the socialized system as an unnecessary increase in time and the cost of care. If the society does not respect individual rights in general, it would not do it in hospitals. The Russian medical oath protects the "good of the people," not necessarily the "good of the person." 3
Apathy and Irresponsibility
Widespread apathy and low quality of work paralyzed the health-care system in the same way as all other sectors of Russian economy. Irresponsibility, expressed by a popular Russian saying ("They pretend they are paying us and we pretend we are working. ") resulted in the appalling quality of the "free" services, widespread corruption, and loss of life. According to official Russian estimates, 78 percent of all AIDS victims in Russia contracted the virus through dirty needles or HIV-tainted blood in the state run hospitals. To receive minimal attention by doctors and nursing personnel the patient was supposed to pay bribes. Dr. Maltsev witnessed a case when a "non-paying" patient died trying to reach a lavatory at the end of the long corridor after brain surgery. Anesthesia usually would "not be available" for abortions or minor ear, nose, throat, and skin surgeries, and was used as a means of extortion by unscrupulous medical bureaucrats. Being a People's Deputy in the Moscow region in 1987-89, Dr. Maltsev received many complaints about criminal negligence, bribes taken by medical apparatchiks, drunken ambulance crews, and food poisoning in hospitals and child-care facilities.
Not surprisingly, government bureaucrats and Communist party officials as early as 1921 (two years after Lenin's socialization of medicine) realized that the egalitarian system of health care is good only for their personal interest as providers, managers, and rationers, but not as private users of the system. So, in all countries with socialized medicine we observe a two-tier system one for the "gray masses," and the other, with a completely different level of service for the bureaucrats and their intellectual servants. In the USSR it was often the case that while workers and peasants would be dying in the state hospitals, the medicines and equipment which could save their lives were sitting unused in the nomenklatura system. 4
A "Privileged Class"?
Western admirers of socialism would praise Russia for its concern with the planned "scientific" approach to childbearing and care of children. "There is only one privileged class in Russia- children," proclaimed Clementine Churchill on her visit to a showcase Stalinist kindergarten in Moscow in 1947. The real "privileged class" Stalin's nomenklatura - were so pleased with the wife of the "chief imperialist" Winston Churchill that they awarded her with an "Order of the Red Banner." Facts, however, testify to the opposite of Mrs. Churchill's opinion. The official infant mortality rate in Russia is more than 2.5 times as large as in the United States and more than five times that of Japan. The rate of 24.5 deaths per 1,000 live births was questioned recently by several deputies to the Russian Parliament who claim that it is seven times higher than in the United States. This would make the Russian death rate 55 compared to the U.S. rate of 8.1 percent per 1,000 live births. In the rural regions of Sakha, Kalmykia, and Ingushetia, the infant mortality rate is close to 100 per 1,000 births, putting these regions in the same category as Angola, Chad, and Bangladesh. of thousands of infants fall victim to influenza every year, and the proportion of children dying from pneumonia is on the increase. Rickets, caused by a lack of vitamin D and unknown in the rest of the modern world, is killing many young people. 5 Uterine damage is widespread, thanks to the 7.3 abortions the average Russian woman undergoes during childbearing years. After seventy years of socialist economizing, 57 percent of all Russian hospitals do not have running hot water, while 36 percent of hospitals located in rural areas of Russia do not have water or sewage. Isn't it amazing that socialist governments, while developing sophisticated systems of weapons and space exploration would completely ignore basic human needs of their citizens? "It was no secret that on many occasions in the past 70 years, workers' health had been sacrificed to the needs of the economy-although the cost of treating the resulting diseases had eventually outweighed the supposed gains," 6 stated Russian State Public Health Inspector E. Belyaev.
Man-made ecological disasters like catastrophes at nuclear power stations near Chelyabinsk and then Chernobyl, the literal liquidation of the Aral Sea, serious contamination of the Volga River, Azov Sea and great Siberian rivers, have made unbearable the quality of life both in the major cities and the countryside. According to Alexei Yablokov, the Minister for Health and Environment of the Russian Federation, 20 percent of the people live in "ecological disaster zones," and an additional 35-40 percent in "ecologically unfavorable conditions." 7 As a sad legacy of the socialist experiment, we observe a marked decline in the population of Russia and experts predict a continuation of this trend through the end of the century. From Russian State Statistical Office data, it appears that in 1993 there were 1.4 million births and 2.2 million deaths. Because of inward migration of Russians from the "near abroad" - former "republics" of the Soviet empire, the net fall in population was limited to 500,000. The dramatic rise in mortality and significant decline in fertility is attributed primarily to the appalling quality of health services, and the deteriorating environment. The head of the Department of Human Resources reckons that the fertility index will remain at around 1. 5 until the end of the century, whereas an index of 2.11 would be necessary to maintain the present population. 8But, "the only lesson of history is that it does not teach us anything" says a popular Russian aphorism. Despite the obvious collapse of socialist medicine in Russia, and its bankruptcy everywhere else, it is still alive and growing in the United States. It possesses a mortal danger to freedom, health, and the quality of life for us and generations to come.
Incentives Matter
The chief reason for the dire state of the Russian health-care system is the incentive structure based on the absence of property rights. The current lack of goods and education within health care has caused Russians to look to the United States for assistance and guidance. In 1991 Yeltsin signed into law a Proposal for Insurance Medicine. 9 The intent is to privatize the health-care system in the long run and decentralize medical control. "The private ownership of hospitals and other units is seen as a critical determining factor of the new system of 'insurance' medicine." 10 It is moving to the direction the United States is leaving-less government control over health care. While national licensing and accreditation within health-care professions and institutions are still lacking in Russia, they are needed for self-governance as opposed to central government control.
Decay and the appalling quality of services is characteristic of not only "barbarous" Russia and other Eastern European nations, it is a direct result of the government monopoly on health care. In "civilized" England, for example, the waiting list for surgery is nearly 800,000 out of a population of 55 million. State of the art equipment is non-existent in most British hospitals. In England only 10 percent of the health-care spending is derived from private sources. Britain pioneered in developing kidney dialysis technology, and yet the country has one of the lowest dialysis rates in the world. The Brookings Institution (hardly a supporter of free markets) found 7,000 Britons in need of hip replacement, between 4,000 and 20,000 in need of coronary bypass surgery, and some 10,000 to 15,000 in need of cancer chemotherapy are denied medical attention in Britain each year.11Age discrimination is particularly apparent in all government-run or heavily regulated systems of health care. In Russia patients over 60 years are considered worthless parasites and those over 70 years are often denied even elementary forms of the health care. In the U.K., in the treatment of chronic kidney failure, those who were 55 years old were refused treatment at 35 percent of dialysis centers. At age 65, 45 percent at the centers were denied treatment, while patients 75 or older rarely received any medical attention at these centers. In Canada, the population is divided into three age groups-below 45; 45-65; and over 65, in terms of their access to health care. Needless to say, the first group, who could be called the "active taxpayers," enjoy priority treatment.
Socialized medicine creates massive government bureaucracies, imposes costly job destroying mandates on employers to provide the coverage, imposes price-controls which will inevitably lead to shortages and poor quality of service. It could lead to non-price rationing (i.e., based on political considerations, corruption, and nepotism) of health care by government bureaucrats. Socialized medical systems have not served to raise general health or living standards anywhere. There is no analytical reason or empirical evidence that would lead us to expect it to do so. And in fact both analytical reasoning and empirical evidence point to the opposite conclusion. But the failure of socialized medicine to raise health and longevity has not affected its appeal for politicians, administrators, and intellectuals, that is, for actual or potential seekers of power.
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At the time of the original publication, Dr. Maltsev gained his insight as an adviser to the last Soviet government on issues of social policy, including health care, and as a patient in the system. He taught at Carthage College in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Louise Omdahl, a nursing educator and manager, was actively involved in humanitarian assistance through nursing contacts in Russia and has visited numerous Russian health-care facilities.
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1. Pavel D. Tichtchenko and Boris G. Yudin, "Toward a Bioethics in Post-Communist Russia," Cambridge Quarterly of Healthcare Ethics, No. 4, 1992, p. 296.
2. C. Fleischman and V. Lubamudrov, "Heart to Heart: Teaching Pediatric Cardiology and Cardiac Surgery to Nurses in St. Petersburg, Russia," Journal ofPediatric Nursing, Vol. 8, No. 2, April, 1993, p. 135.
3. Pavel D. Tichtchenko and Boris G. Yudin, "Toward a Bioethics in Post-Communist Russia," Cambridge Quarterly of Healthcare Ethics, No. 4, 1992, p. 298.
4. Here in the United States the system of fully socialized medicine is not yet complete, but we already observe the "parallel" system of health care for bureaucrats who enjoy coverage practically unseen in the private sector. Referring to this system, Dr. Stuart Butler of the Heritage Foundation remarked: "Why reinvent the wheel? If a working health-care system already exists, that's good enough for official Washington, why not to use it as our model, improve upon it and let the rest of America enjoy the same kind of program as members of Congress and Clinton's White House staff." Heritage Today, Winter 1994, p. 4.
5. N. Eberstadt, The Poverty of Communism (New Brunswick: Transaction Books, 1990), p. 14-15.
6. The Lancet, Vol. 337, June 15, 1991, p. 1469.
7. The Economist, November 4, 1989, p. 24.
8. Radio Free Europe-Radio Liberty Daily Report, February 16, 1994.
9. George Schieber, "Health Care Financing Reform in Russia and Ukraine," Health Affairs, Supplement 1993, p. 294.
10. Michael Ryan, "Health Care in Moscow, British Medical Journal, Vol. 307, September 1993, " p. 782.
11. Joseph L. Bast, Richard C. Rue, and Stuart A. Wesbury, Jr., Why We Spend Too Much on Health Care and What We Can Do About It (Chicago: The Heartland Institute, 1993), P. 101.
Reprinted with permission from The Freeman, a publication of The Foundation for Economic Education, Inc., November 1994, Vol. 44, No. 11.
You say you are a liberal.
Do you believe the following?
Standards for admissions to universities, fire departments, etc. should be lowered for people of color.
Bilingual education for children of immigrants, rather than immersion in English, is good for them and for America.
Murderers should never be put to death.
During the Cold War, America should have adopted a nuclear arms freeze.
Colleges should not allow ROTC programs.
It was wrong to wage war against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War.
Poor parents should not be allowed to have vouchers to send their children to private schools.
It is good that trial lawyers and teachers unions are the two biggest contributors to the Democratic Party.
Marriage should be redefined from male-female to any two people.
A married couple should not have more of a right to adopt a child than two men or two women.
The Boy Scouts should not be allowed to use parks or any other public places and should be prohibited from using churches and synagogues for their meetings.
The present high tax rates are good.
Speech codes on college campuses are good and American values.
The Israelis and Palestinians are morally equivalent.
The United Nations is a moral force for good in the world, and therefore America should be subservient to it and such international institutions as a world court.
It is good that colleges have dropped hundreds of men's sports teams in order to meet gender-based quotas.
No abortions can be labeled immoral.
Restaurants should be prohibited by law from allowing customers to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking section.
High schools should make condoms available to students and teach them how to use them.
Racial profiling for terrorists is wrong -- a white American grandmother should as likely be searched as a Saudi young male.
Racism and poverty -- not a lack of fathers and a crisis of values -- are the primary causes of violent crime in the inner city.
It is wrong and unconstitutional for students to be told, "God bless you" at their graduation.
No culture is morally superior to any other.
Those are all liberal positions. How many of them do you hold?
Iran clarifies the Middle East
Dennis Prager (back to web version) | Send
December 30, 2003
If you want to understand the Middle East conflict, Iran has just provided all you need to know.
A massive earthquake kills between 20,000 and 40,000 Iranians, and the government of Iran announces that help is welcome from every country in the world . . . except Israel.
This little-reported news item is of great significance. It begs commentary.
Israel not only has the world's most experienced crews in quickly finding survivors in bombed out buildings, it is also a mere two-hour flight from Iran. In other words, no country in the world would come close to Israel in its ability to save Iranian lives quickly.
But none of this means anything to the rulers of Iran. The Islamic government of Iran has announced to the world that it is better for fellow countrymen and fellow Muslims -- men, women and children -- to die buried under rubble than to be saved by a Jew from Israel.
That is how deep the hatred of Israel and Jews is in much of the Muslim world.
Hundreds of millions of Muslims -- Arab and non-Arab, Sunni and Shi'a -- hate Israel more than they love life. Leaders of the Palestinian terror organization Hamas repeatedly state, "We love death more than the Jews love life." And now, Iran announces that it is better for a Muslim to asphyxiate under the earth than be rescued by a Jew from Israel.
Naive Westerners -- which includes most academics, intellectuals, members of the international news media, and nearly all others on the Left -- refuse to acknowledge the uniqueness of the Arab/Muslim hatred of Israel and Jews. Yet, there is no hatred in the world analogous to it. Not since the Nazi hatred of Jews has humanity witnessed such hate.
That is why finding survivors from earthquakes, creating a Palestinian state and life itself are all far less important in much of the Islamic and Arab worlds than killing Jews and destroying the little Jewish state.
That is why Arab newspapers run articles by Arab professors describing how Jews butcher non-Jewish children to use their blood for holiday meals.
That is why Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad could get a standing ovation from the heads of every Muslim country when he told them "the Jews rule the world by proxy."
That is why Palestinian parents celebrate the suicide terror of their sons -- the joy of killing Israeli families far outweighs the pain of the death of their child.
Western naifs like to believe platitudes such as "Deep down, all people are really the same," "All people want peace," and the great untruth of multiculturalism that no culture is morally superior to another. That is why they choose not to face the truth about the Nazi-like hatred that permeates the Arab/Muslim world and the consequent moral gulf that exists between it and Israel. It shatters too many of their illusions.
Surely the Iranian refusal of rescuers from the Jewish state ought to help all these people acknowledge the unique hatred that is at the root of the Arab-Israeli dispute and recognize that it is therefore a conflict unlike any other on earth.
So, too, the immediate and sincere Israeli offer of rescuers to Iran should make the moral gulf between Israel and its enemies as clear as day. Despite the fact that Iran is the greatest backer of anti-Israel (and anti-American) terror and despite the fact that Iran repeatedly declares that Israel must be annihilated (in other words, seeks a second Jewish Holocaust), Israel offered to send its people to save Iranian lives.
The two reactions -- Iran's preference for Iranian deaths to Israeli help and the Jewish state's instinctive offer to help save Iranian lives -- ought to be enough anyone needs to understand the source of the Middle East conflict. But they won't. Because those who are anti-Israel or "evenhanded" are not so because of the facts, but despite them.
©2003 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
Socialism kills
Dennis Prager (back to web version)
September 2, 2003
In a period of two weeks during August, more than 11,000 elderly French men and women died of heat stroke. It is important to note that this is not nearly the scandal in France that it would be in America. In fact, upon hearing the news, French president Jacque Chirac decided to stay on vacation in Quebec.
Why has this happened? In large measure because, in the words of British historian Paul Johnson, the French, like most Europeans, and like most left-thinking people anywhere, love ideas more than people. The average educated European can intelligently discuss Hegel or Matisse almost as well as the average educated American - who probably never heard of Hegel or Matisse - can discuss real estate or sports.
Europe has given the world Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, racism, and socialism, all rotten ideas that have caused immeasurable human suffering. But for Europeans and their ideological twins on the American left and at universities, ideas are not judged by their ability to ameliorate huiman suffering or reduce evil, but by their complexity and apparent profundity. An idea is not good because it produces good - that's unromantic American pragmatism - it is good because it sounds good.
Eleven thousand unnecessary deaths occurred in France largely because socialism inevitably breeds hedonism, selfishness, and callousness.
As ironic as it may seem, the fact is that socialism - i.e. cradle-to-grave state welfare - makes people worse.
First, the socialist mind loathes work. In France, the legal length of the work week is 35 hours. Working hard to make more money is an American value that is held in contempt by the Left. The New York Times recently featured an article describing the death of the Protestant work ethic in secular, socialist Europe and the thriving of that ethic in America - and that this explains the far greater productivity and affluence of America. The Judeo-Christian tradition values work; secularism doesn't. And as we all know from watching our children, people with a lot of time on their hands have character problems.
Second, socialism values equality more than liberty. The Norwegian government recently passed a law that the boards of its largest corporations must be half female. The California left, the Democratic Party, just passed a law that no employer may fire a male employee who wears women's clothing at work. Because the Left holds liberty (except sexual liberty) in lower esteem, Europe has raised a generation that does not value liberty nearly as much Americans do (though we're getting there).
Third, socialism teaches you to avoid taking care of other people. The state will - why should you? If people in France and elsewhere in Europe take less care of their aging parents, it is because they are taught from childhood to allow others, i.e. the state, to take care of everybody. Just as we saw in America when the state stepped in to take care of women who had children without a husband, these women increasingly refused to marry and felt little compunction about having more babies out of wedlock. The bigger the government, the worse the people.
Fourth, as a result of this socialist mindset, people in socialist countries give little charity, while Americans give vast amounts (just as Americans in conservative states give more charity per capita than people in liberal ones).
Fifth, the larger the state, the more callous it becomes. Twentieth century evil was made possible in large measure by the bureaucratic mentality - the type of person who is merely a cog in huge governmental machine, collectively all-powerful but individually powerless to do anything except take and execute orders. The bigger the state, the colder its heart. (It is also true that the bigger the corporation, the more callous its heart. But unlike the state, corporations have competition and have no police powers.)
As I wrote in a previous column, the future of the world is either European secular socialism, Islamic totalitarianism, or the unique American combination of Judeo-Christian religiosity and political and economic liberty. Few Americans are attracted to the second possibility, but vast numbers look to Europe as a model. One hopes that the next time they do, they will note the 11,000 elderly dead in France. But don't bet on it.
©2003 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
...and this is why I feel that I must represent a different opinion in the nursing world. I have learned in my BSN education that I finish in the Spring that to be a good nurse I have to do and believe the following:
The world according to highly educated, academia, left-wing, liberal, nursing professors:
1. To be a good nurse acceptance of universal healthcare is required, without question.
2. To be a good nurse acceptance of abortion through all nine months must be accepted without debate.
3. To be a good nurse you must be a registered card carrying member of the DFL liberal-leftist party.
4. To be a good nurse you must never question taxes, and you must want tax increases (even though we now pay 35% of our incomes to the government).
5. To be a good nurse you must accept, promote, and idolize homosexuality.
6. To be a good nurse you must never question your professor on any of their liberal rhetoric, one just must accept it blindly.
7. To be a good nurse you must be an anti-Republican, anti-George Bush promoter. (you get extra credit for wearing code pink buttons and having a bumper sticker that says, "He is not my president.").
8. To be a good nurse you must believe that socialism is a good thing for America.
9. To be a good nurse you must believe that the USA was the "cause" of 911.
10. To be a good nurse you must believe that your religion is wrong and that there are one million different religions that are all correct.
And, that is why I must go on hoping that the nursing profession in the US does not so combine itself with the above beliefs that we have no room for latitude, as we are coming to that point now.
Signing off...
kitkat
Holy crap! Are you kidding me?!
Kitkat, I am going to work on the assumption that you are an honest person simply trying to discuss your experience in the world and in nursing. So please take this in the spirit it was meant:
You rail against people who stereotype you and think you are less than them for having different beliefs. But in the same breath, you would claim that left-thinkers care more about ideas than people... That those who are not of the judeo-christian tradiion don't have a work ethic... That "liberals" must believe everything you typed (which they don't because they aren't robotic drones) and that anyone who disagrees is somehow defective. Do you not see the irony in that? Do you not think it might be a little offensive to some of us who consider ourselves liberal? I have never met you or treated you with disrespect. I hope that you might consider the fact that I just see some things differently than you and that doesn't make me some kind of freak.
I think to best represent nursing is to:
Act in the best interest of your patients.
Do what is in the best interest of your patient.
Do not do anything against the best interest of your patients.
Do not accept unsafe staffing, orders to do what is not in the best interest of your patients.
Be sure you are competent. Always insist on classes, orientation, and experience before accepting responsibility for any patient.
Do not concern yourself with the personal opinions of any inappropriate professor. Insist on being provided the training and leadership conviction you need to advocate for your patients.
Do not allow an inappropriate "leader" to tell you the budget is the first priority. We are after all "passing through".
I have never had a person near death tell me they were proud of making money. Being a loving parent, son, daughter, friend and making someones life better is what those whose last days and hours I was privileged to share have made them feel their life was worth living.
That is regardless of political opinion as I never asked.
Just for the sake of discussion, I'll answer
Originally posted by kitkat24You say you are a liberal.
Do you believe the following?
Standards for admissions to universities, fire departments, etc. should be lowered for people of color.
No, and they shouldn't be lowered for legacies or men in nursing.
Bilingual education for children of immigrants, rather than immersion in English, is good for them and for America.
Actually, I am a strong proponent of all Americans learning another language. As long as they do learn English, their horizons can only be broadenned by speaking more than one language. Are you not in favor of more language education?
Murderers should never be put to death.
Yep. Death penalty serves no purpose other than vengeance. If it made the streets safer or could be evenly applied or wasn't so expensive, I'll change my view. Until then, I say lock em up, throw away the key and make sure jail is the most unfun place on the planet.
During the Cold War, America should have adopted a nuclear arms freeze.
no
Colleges should not allow ROTC programs.
I could care less if a college wants an ROTC program, and I have never heard anyone I know say they shouldn't.
It was wrong to wage war against Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War.
Wrong.... not necessarily, but it could have been handled much better.
Poor parents should not be allowed to have vouchers to send their children to private schools.
Why should the government pay for private schools? This to me seems like the most un-republican idea of all. If poor people want to send their kids to private schools, they can cough up the money themselves (pretty harsh for a liberal?).
It is good that trial lawyers and teachers unions are the two biggest contributors to the Democratic Party.
I don't really care about that anymore than I care about the businesses that donate to the Republican party or the foreigners (read Saudis) that do. Special interest groups run things on both sides, but neither party seems to want finance reform.
Marriage should be redefined from male-female to any two people.
Yep. Like it or not, straight people long ago caused marriage to be unsacred. With our divorce, infidelity and abuse rates among hetero marriages, I could care less if 2 decent gay people get together. How does this hurt you in any way?
A married couple should not have more of a right to adopt a child than two men or two women.
Yep, and speaking as an adoptee, you know why? Because it is the birth parents who get to make that decision, not the state. My birth mother had every right to choose my parents when she decided to give me up rather than have an abortion. So if she had wanted me to be raised by a caring lesbian couple, that's her business, and not yours. I don't understand why Republicans want government to stay out of our bedrooms, unless it's about gays or pregnant women.
The Boy Scouts should not be allowed to use parks or any other public places and should be prohibited from using churches and synagogues for their meetings.
No, I could really care less about where boyscouts get together.
The present high tax rates are good.
No.
Speech codes on college campuses are good and American values.
Depends on the college.
The Israelis and Palestinians are morally equivalent.
No. But at the same time, Israel pretending to ONLY have clean hands in the matter is a little trite.
The United Nations is a moral force for good in the world, and therefore America should be subservient to it and such international institutions as a world court.
No. But common sense would tell me that it isn't helpful to be scornful about it, cause sooner or later we will ask for other countries to help us out in some way. Better not to pi$$ on them first. I think some people confuse strength with stupidity when it comes to diplomacy.
It is good that colleges have dropped hundreds of men's sports teams in order to meet gender-based quotas.
No, and I don't know where this is happening. My college could afford to field women's and men's teams.
No abortions can be labeled immoral.
ABSOLUTELY NOT! You can label whatever you want as immoral, because that is a personal judgement. But again, I don't think the state has the right to make religious morals the basis for laws.
Restaurants should be prohibited by law from allowing customers to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking section.
No. But I don't have a real problem with restaurants not having smoking sections anymore.
High schools should make condoms available to students and teach them how to use them.
Yes. See the abortion issue. Studies have shown that sex ed and the availability of contraception does not cause promiscuity. If you have a personal moral objection, you can refuse to allow your child to receive this life saving education, and kids can get condoms at the gas station bathroom.
Racial profiling for terrorists is wrong -- a white American grandmother should as likely be searched as a Saudi young male.
No, but simple profiling based on colour just isn't practical. There are a lot of brown people out there. Customs officers are trained to look for red flags other than "he's brown and his name's Mohammed".
Racism and poverty -- not a lack of fathers and a crisis of values -- are the primary causes of violent crime in the inner city.
They have a lot to do with it, but they aren't the only cause. That's why wealthier white single mothers don't see the same crime rates among their children as poor black ones. But I do think people are responsible for their own actions, and once again, I say condoms and bc free for all who want em!
It is wrong and unconstitutional for students to be told, "God bless you" at their graduation.
No, but I also don't know why it is so important for the religious to CONSTANTLY need to bring this up. Religious teaching happens at home and church in my family. Would you want your kid's principal to say "May Allah watch over you"? Probably not, I'm guessing, because you want to be the one to teach him about spirituality. For those who feel the need to make a huge uproar about this, I think they must be fortunate to lead such good lives that this is their major concern.
No culture is morally superior to any other.
Again, you can say what you want about morality. I believe there are certain basic human rights and ALL people have those. Beyond that, I don't really care to get into a my culture is better than yours debate. It's a little too.... aryan-ish.
Those are all liberal positions. How many of them do you hold?
So, you can count for me. Should I make a list of stereotypical and offensive Republican beliefs and you can defend them? How about: you care more about business than people? Or anyone who isn't like you is going to hell? Or all other cultures are inferior? Or you only care about babies when they are in the womb, but do nothing for them when they are in the world? Or poor people are inferior to you? Or we have every right to bomb any country we want, anytime? Or we should be allowed to execute children and mentally retarded people? We should be allowed to all have as many weapons as we want and carry them anywhere? I doubt many Republicans would say they hold these views, so I hope I have made my point to you which is that "liberal" and "conservative" covers a range of people, and neither are evil.
Fergus51 has largely taken the words out of my mouth (although my list of "yes" and "no" answers would differ somewhat).
Kitkat24, you started out this thread saying that you were sincerely seeking unbiased information about different healthcare financing systems, and I have attempted to engage with you on this thread in a fair, even-handed manner without pushing any particular position (but being open about where I stand). But it does appear that you have some very fixed, narrow ideas about people who don't agree with you and a rather rigid political agenda. And this Dennis Prager guy, whoever the dickens HE is and wherever you found him, is spouting just as much propaganda and brainwashing as you accuse the pro-single-payer, demon liberals :chuckle of doing -- it's just a different flavor.
I hope that you actually are open to looking at other perspectives and seeking unbiased information. It may be that your views will change over time, or they may not, but I think it's important to always remain open to new ideas and new understanding of the world ...
I was and am open to unbiased opinions in this thread, but mostly, admittedly not all, of the posts were biased. And, I am really just bombarded with left-wing liberal mantra's throughout my life. I see nursing drowning in an ALL or nothing liberal viewpoints. It seems that for a profession that "claims" to embrace all opinions and all people, they do, as long as you do not hold a conservative notion. And, all of my college professors squelch any conservative conversation and that is unfortunate. College is to learn about different perspectives and then the student can form a decision. College is not supposed to be a place of indoctrination.
I will not attempt to justify any comments made about "killing retarded people" or "killing children", now that is ironic. My nine year old does have mental retardation and cerebral palsy, and he was as deserving of life inutero as any non-disabled child is. Those are not commonly held beliefs of Republicans.
And, the reason Dennis Prager puts that list out there, is that even though people describe themselves as Liberals and Democrats, most will not agree with all those positions on that list, thus they are not as "liberal" as one might think.
To get the other side of universal healthcare, somebody has to be willing to respresent that side, and I do not find that coming from scholarly journals and research. I'll look elsewhere.
Kitkat
Kitkat24, there's no such thing as an "unbiased" opinion -- opinions are personal views and are always biased. Facts can be unbiased, but not opinions! :)
As for the predominance of liberal views in nursing, maybe it's not brainwashing and propaganda -- maybe it's just that most of us hold those views ... In my experience, you would find the same phenomenon in education and social work.
My reference to Dennis Prager was not the wacko "liberal positions" list -- you did not identify that as coming from him when you posted it -- but the articles by him that you have posted earlier, which are obviously flogging a conservative right-wing OPINION and are certainly not unbiased information by any stretch of the imagination. If you and he want to hold those positions, you are welcome to do so, but don't make the mistake of thinking that you are being balanced and unbiased ...
And I'm afraid that I missed entirely any reference to "killing children" or "killing retarded people" -- don't know where that came from at all!
NurseHardee
71 Posts
It's not that "their" system is scary. It's that ours is. Can one really blame socialized medicine for the spread of AIDS throughout Africa and other capitalist areas of the world?
NurseHardee