NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

[Brian]

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

[JMP]

This so-called argument is like banging heads against a brick wall.

My intention was to enlighten the group regarding BSN as entry to practice and how it has WORKED here.......... what happens? Continued back-biting and moral outrage.....and the same old arguments about WHO makes the bigger, better nurse.

If you come across a new young nurse who needs help finding something, doing something ( like inserting a foley or finding the "liver") SHOW THEM, TEACH them...... don't roll your eyes and make statements about "how I can't believe it....they don't know ......(fill in blank). Not helpul. Believe it or not gossip, eye rolling, folding of arms are all forms of horizontal violence which stems from oppression.

Professionalism starts HERE and NOW.

[Q.]

No Earle58, it was not to you, sorry. The reply was to Suzy.

You honestly can't see the difference between saying:

"Yes, I believe a Bachelor's degree will help our profession"

AND

"ALL BSNs are clinically stupid and the ENTIRE educational system of the BSN needs to be redone because of the 5 GNs I witnessed in my neck o' the woods."

Um, wow. If that is truly the case, and you seriously think those two statements are equal in their suppositions, over-generalization and are equally insulting in nature, well then unfortunately our discussion, for me, is done.

Deb, yes I live in a large midwestern city. Now. But I was also raised in PoDunk, Wisconsin and have family that lives in PoDunk, Wisconsin. This discussion about PoDunk is actually interesting because on one hand there's a poster here who feels that nursing education should stop focusing on community health but rather focus on memorization drills, yet at the same time we're worried about who's going to staff PoDunk's hospital. Forget the hospital, and forget the people who want to go to nursing school, what about the rural communities that don't have access to a hospital? Who's going to take care of them? The nurse who knows what side of the body the liver is on? 6th graders know that! But if we don't educate our nurses on community and rural health nursing and do away with it as some people here want, we'll be leaving out an entire population who's main problem is health care access.

All the more reason, I think, that a BSN is needed in our profession.

[Erin RN]

i have not finished reading this thread but felt compelled to respond: i do agree, in a perfect world, that nursing education should be standardized. i have worked with many degreed (bsn and up) nurses and adn nurses. if i'm forced to generalize, i will take the adn nurse hands down BUT that is specific to the nurses i am thinking of. furthermore, there are tons of nurses who educate themselves without being degreed. it is within themself to want to know why, how, rationales, etc. these nurses read on their own time; they explore; they're impassioned and thrive to learn as much as possible. it is not merely a task to us, but it's imperative to understand why you're doing what you're doing. it's no secret that nurses can and are held accountable if they don't question an iffy md order and in order to question, you need a knowledge base. for me, i am a professional learner but i am not degreed. i have also met several degreed people who were superficial, pompous ingrates.

in spite of having their degrees, they are still not 'professional'. if a bsn is mandated, it certainly better be grandfathered and the current nsg. shortage had better be resolved. the last crisis we need right now is even less enrollment in nursing school. so yes, i am for higher education when it is relevant to nsg. but again, keep in mind, there are many of us that educate ourselves at home and don't feel we need the bachelors to vindicate our nursing capabilities.

This is so true! There are so many nurses out there that graduate and then unless forced to never truly expand on their knowledge base again. I think we have all agreed time and time again (for the most part) that the ADN and the BSN get out of school with nearly identical NURSING knowledge we are not talking about history or general ed here..therefore as far as nursing these individuals are on a even playing field. Which again, we have all pretty much decided is basically ground zero. I think we have all went through the "what am I doing here" on the first day of "real work".

The real travesty is our profession is that so many graduate and then sit back and don't ask those why, when, where questions. I know we all know these type of individuals. One of my biggest obstacles with the BSN is the fact that additional general ed classes are not going to make me more competent nor more professional. If they do institute the BSN they ouught make the last year a "focus" year much like the MD residency..we can choose an area and have focused study in regards to it...now that would turn out some awesome practitioners in my opinion..of course I am just dreaming here.

[trent]

I have seen a few discussions about accessibility of BSN training, so I thought I would share my experience in Ontario where the BSN is now the entry to practice.

In Ontario, community college RN programs are no longer "stand-alone" programs, but have become associated with a university. I have not heard of ANY nursing programs that have completely disappeared, but most have changed their name and the program length to meet the requirements.

Some BSN programs take place exclusively at universities, some take place at college for 2 years and at university for 2 years, and some take place at college and university concurrently for the full 4 years. From students who had only the choice of BSN to become RNs I have heard very little griping about the length of the program. Some have even told me that they only considered going into nursing because a BSN was offered (mostly because of pressure from parents and high school teachers - "you've got good enough marks to go to university, why consider college?").

At my school, electives are limited to courses that can help us to specialize if we so choose (psych, women's studies, anthropology, native studies, etc.) - there is no requirement for english classes or physics and most of my classes are designed from a nursing perspective (chem for nursing students focused on acid-base balance, not the structure of organic molecules).

[trent]

As nurses in the workplace, when you see a student or new grad who is lacking knowledge, please help them to learn AND think about writing to/speaking with the school that they attend(ed). How are nursing programs going to improve unless you let them know where their weaknesses are? I think some constructive criticism is in order.

Getting off my soapbox now...

[JMP]

As nurses in the workplace, when you see a student or new grad who is lacking knowledge, please help them to learn AND think about writing to/speaking with the school that they attend(ed). How are nursing programs going to improve unless you let them know where their weaknesses are? I think some constructive criticism is in order.

Getting off my soapbox now...

Well said. When a resident has a question or not sure how to do something- docs rally round and show-teach-help. It is seen as part of professional responsiblity. Nurses can and should do the same.

[Q.]

Well said. When a resident has a question or not sure how to do something- docs rally round and show-teach-help. It is seen as part of professional responsiblity. Nurses can and should do the same.

YES!

As "professional" nurses, rather than rolling our eyes and then pointing to someone's degree as being inferior, we should be teaching and mentoring. GNs are not robots who are "malfunctioning" when they can't list off anatomical parts correctly who then should be sent back to the manufacturer for repair for cripe's sake. And that's how some of these posts sounds; the robot malfunctioned and the factory that assembled them screwed up. Jeez.

[SmilingBluEyes]

YES!

As "professional" nurses, rather than rolling our eyes and then pointing to someone's degree as being inferior, we should be teaching and mentoring. GNs are not robots who are "malfunctioning" when they can't list off anatomical parts correctly who then should be sent back to the manufacturer for repair for cripe's sake. And that's how some of these posts sounds; the robot malfunctioned and the factory that assembled them screwed up. Jeez.

I totally agree. And I agree, standardized entry would be ideal. I refuse to get into the silly generalizations that BSNs are all clinically inadequate and ADN's are superior. That is just plain ignorant and without any solid basis.

I will say, What I hope is a lot of thought is given to the process and perhaps we mirror how Canada has handled it BEFORE this comes to pass. Also, grandfathering in RN's already in practice is adviseable and wise. I won't argue access with you any longer Suzy, because we disagree. But I think Canada at least appears to have the solution to my concerns, as I see them.

[studentrn621]

well said. when a resident has a question or not sure how to do something- docs rally round and show-teach-help. it is seen as part of professional responsiblity. nurses can and should do the same.

i agree. we should work together instead of tearing each other down.

[cenote]

Has anyone investigated the requirements to go from ADN to BSN? In my opinion it is the idiotic myriad of "dumb" courses required by many programs that discourage ADNs from advancing to a BSN.

As someone with a college degree in a non-science field who wants to get their BSN, I am offended by the requirements. I'll be specific here. Many ask you to take Speech, Arts, Computer 101, BioChemistry (Chem. 101 will not do), Nutrition (had this all thru the Associates courses), etc., etc. They then throw a few really lame nursing courses. (Anything to stretch out your time with them and increase your costs). Many require courses that are not required for the original BSN.

Personally, had I taken the BSN program here, since with my previous degree I have taken many of the pre requisites, it would have added just one year to my schooling. But being financially strapped and planning to work while I get my BSN, I chose the Associates degree. NOW, IF I WANT TO GET IT AFTER I COMPLETE MY ASSOCIATES, IT WILL TAKE ONE AND ONE HALF YEARS.

MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE????????????

To understand the motivation behind most of the "required" non-nursing curriculum and the wimpy nursing courses, I asked on of my instructors who smiled and said, "The longer they can keep you in school, the more money they can get from you." The greatest offenders are the on-line programs. The owners of these schools are well aware that they can add some nonsensical courses that add to the costs and nurses will just go along due to the convenience of home study.

What may be needed to spur on the ADN to get their BSN, is a universal curriculum that makes sense. This would go a long way in encouraging further education. Simply stop the fleecing of the ADNs and set some needed standards.

Too easy to implement. Makes too much sense. Will probably never happen.

[JMP]

Has anyone investigated the requirements to go from ADN to BSN? In my opinion it is the idiotic myriad of "dumb" courses required by many programs that discourage ADNs from advancing to a BSN.

As someone with a college degree in a non-science field who wants to get their BSN, I am offended by the requirements. I'll be specific here. Many ask you to take Speech, Arts, Computer 101, BioChemistry (Chem. 101 will not do), Nutrition (had this all thru the Associates courses), etc., etc. They then throw a few really lame nursing courses. (Anything to stretch out your time with them and increase your costs). Many require courses that are not required for the original BSN.

Personally, had I taken the BSN program here, since with my previous degree I have taken many of the pre requisites, it would have added just one year to my schooling. But being financially strapped and planning to work while I get my BSN, I chose the Associates degree. NOW, IF I WANT TO GET IT AFTER I COMPLETE MY ASSOCIATES, IT WILL TAKE ONE AND ONE HALF YEARS.

MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE????????????

To understand the motivation behind most of the "required" non-nursing curriculum and the wimpy nursing courses, I asked on of my instructors who smiled and said, "The longer they can keep you in school, the more money they can get from you." The greatest offenders are the on-line programs. The owners of these schools are well aware that they can add some nonsensical courses that add to the costs and nurses will just go along due to the convenience of home study.

What may be needed to spur on the ADN to get their BSN, is a universal curriculum that makes sense. This would go a long way in encouraging further education. Simply stop the fleecing of the ADNs and set some needed standards.

Too easy to implement. Makes too much sense. Will probably never happen.

I am finishing my degree through the University of Victoria in British Colombia, Canada. I have some American classmates. The courses are ALL NURSING related. I am in Ontario----long way away from BC----but it is a great way to finish the BSN- in my opinion.

[LadyT618, MSN, APRN, NP]

Can I just say something here that I've observed......Canada got their s*** together; maybe the US should take some pointers.