NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 14

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   Energizer Bunny
    So, if it's the same what in the world is the difference here? I'm just not getting it I guess.
  2. by   Q.
    Quote from CNM2B
    So, if it's the same what in the world is the difference here? I'm just not getting it I guess.

    The NCLEX is just a test; a measure of minimum safe competency to practice as a novice.

    Licensing and degrees are two different animals.
  3. by   studentrn621
    Quote from susy k
    i don't think it's meant to make anyone more "capable." i really wish that argument would just go away. again, this bsn requirement is not about any individual nurse and how she/he functions - it's about our profession - something so much larger than little susie nurse in the midwest. it's about standardizing nursing education so that the petty arguments of who had more clinical time, who has a higher pass rate on the nclex would just *poof* go away. and so that we're on the same playing field as our other medical professional counterparts.

    in sooo many instances, the nursing profession seems to demand to be an exception. bachelor's degrees as entry is just one of those instances.
    my point exactly. and since we have to take the same test anyway, why not make the bachelor's the starting point.
  4. by   JMP
    Quote from studentrn621
    my point exactly. and since we have to take the same test anyway, why not make the bachelor's the starting point.
    i agree and it is the starting point here. hopefully it will end the "who is a better nurse" argument once and for all..... hopefully.
  5. by   SmilingBluEyes
    "Why not?" Because unless and until BSN programs become much more universally accessible, it's un-doable. What about those in underserved rural areas, etc? How do THEY access BSN programs, when the nearest university is in excess of 100 miles away? IF we are going to do this, making BSN the only way to enter nursing, we need to at least do it smartly. Dont' you see the sheer numbers in what you are asking? 60% are ADN programs and graduates. HOW do you move these numbers and NOT deepen the already critical shortage? See what I have been saying yet in my previous posts?
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 11, '04
  6. by   Q.
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    "Why not?" Because unless and until BSN programs become much more universally accessible, it's un-doable. What about those in underserved rural areas, etc? How do THEY access BSN programs, when the nearest university is in excess of 100 miles away?
    For some reason Deb, I never understood this argument.

    Again, related to my point about nursing demanding exceptions to every norm:
    Do medical schools, schools of social work, dietetics, pharmacy, therapists (pick 'em: respiratory, physical, occupational) and other professions (Law, vet medicine) all worry about if every. single. person. can access the school? And even more to the point: should ANY profession consider this when deciding qualifications, credentials and requirements for practice? I certainly don't think so.

    In addition, with the plethora of on-line and evening semi-accelerated programs, I don't feel that accessibility is limited but rather enhanced.
    Last edit by Susy K on May 11, '04
  7. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Accelerated and online programs are VERY costly and STILL not so universal, Suzy. Accelerated programs only address the needs to those who have prior bachelor's degrees, as well. We are still leaving significant numbers of people out here.

    For example, this would not have worked for me, being a newly-entered RN. Where would I have found an online program for an Generic RN Suzy? It did NOT exist and still does not...unless you are already a licensed LPN or RN. I was not; I went straight for an RN with no medical background behind me. Far as I know, no online BSN exists for generic RN's to date. All but two classmates in my nursing class were generic, like me. Where do we get generic and online BSN programs for these people?
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 11, '04
  8. by   JMP
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Accelerated programs are VERY costly and STILL not so universal, Suzy. Would not have worked for me, being a newly-entered RN either. Where would I have found an online program for an Generic RN Suzy? It did NOT exist and still does not...unless you are already a licensed LPN or RN. I was not, I went straight for an RN with no medical background behind me. Far as I know no online BSN exists for generic RN's to date. All but two classmates in my nursing class were generic, like me. Where do WE get generic and online BSN programs for these people?
    Here community colleges and universities have teamed up. They had to. It was mandated. For example, the college I went to teamed up with Brock University. Another college with Queens university. Students attend the college for two years and then the university for two years...... makes use of all the diploma facilities and the university facilites. Is it perfect? No, but it is coming along. More and more nursing programs are also making use of distance programs to augment their existing programs- like U of Victoria in BC and University of British Colombia. These are Canadian examples of what is working so far.
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    that makes sense JMP. THAT i can see. It's a viable solution I have yet to see proposed here in the USA. NO they just want to make BSN mandatory w/o any viable ways to help make it happen. This is typical in our country. Also, who pays for this? ADN programs are less costly and you get good bang for your buck here. It will be hard to get people to be able to shell out 1000s more for a BSN in so many cases.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 11, '04
  10. by   Erin RN
    Quote from Susy K
    For some reason Deb, I never understood this argument.

    Again, related to my point about nursing demanding exceptions to every norm:
    Do medical schools, schools of social work, dietetics, pharmacy, therapists (pick 'em: respiratory, physical, occupational) and other professions (Law, vet medicine) all worry about if every. single. person. can access the school? And even more to the point: should ANY profession consider this when deciding qualifications, credentials and requirements for practice? I certainly don't think so.

    In addition, with the plethora of on-line and evening semi-accelerated programs, I don't feel that accessibility is limited but rather enhanced.
    The problem with this argument is that while yes, these other professions are not concened with accessability, nursing educators have to be concerned just due to the fact that the ratio of nurses to ancillary staff and MDs is incredible. When I was at the hospital our social work dept had a dozen employees, the nursing dept had hundreds of staffmembers. If we decrease the accessability then the supply will go down, of course then the demand will go up further which would probably make nursing a more lucrative profession but then you have to ask..who is going to take care of the patients? Will we then be forced to have CNAs and techs expand their roles? Nurses are already burning out in record numbers due to staffing, OT and overwork..do you not think that this would make more people leave and quicker??
  11. by   LadyT618
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    that makes sense JMP. THAT i can see. It's a viable solution I have yet to see proposed here in the USA. NO they just want to make BSN mandatory w/o any viable ways to help make it happen. This is typical in our country. Also, who pays for this? ADN programs are less costly and you get good bang for your buck here. It will be hard to get people to be able to shell out 1000s more for a BSN in so many cases.
    I'm with you. There is a problem when BSN programs are not accessible to people who have only ADN programs near them. Maybe soon, they will do away with ADN programs all together (60% of grads out there). After all, according to all these researchers, it's a waste of time. Just go for the BSN, that's what they want anyway.

    I look at it this way, it really makes no sense arguing, because if the powers that be want it to happen, it will happen, whether we like it or not. Hey you never know, things might actually work out. Nursing shortage may cease to exist and all nurses will be one!!........
    .......I hope I'm alive to see it.
  12. by   tntrn
    During a little lull in the action on our Birth Center unit last night, I mentioned this topic to 3 or 4 of my co-workers. We vary in ages from late-30's to mid-50's and vary in years of experience from 10 to 30. All of us got our nurse's training in ADN programs....highly respected ones who post very high Board exam scores, higher than the BSN programs in the states they were taken in.

    No surprise that the two of us in our 50's said no way, no how, to going back to get a BSN. However, the others voiced that same sentiment and that was a bit surprising to me, especially coming from the nurse who is a sole supporter. She's a good nurse, 10 years experience but would not go back to get a BSN. Said there are so many other things she could do with her life.

    All agreed that getting a BSN would not: change the way we do our jobs, change our pay for the better, or increase the amount of respect we get from anybody. What we did agree on was that if a BSN becomes required, the nursing shortage will be far more critical than it is now considered, not only because fewer people will go into or be able to go into nursing, but most especially if current RNS's are not exempted in some way, they will be finding something else to do.

    I consider myself professional. I don't need or want a BSN and do not feel it would get me anything and the costs in time and money would be really detrimental to the free time I enjoy and consider sacred. If I were interested in getting a BS, it wouldn't be in nursing. No one ever grills me on what kind of credentials I have behind my name. RN says it all to most folks. I do have lots of other university level credits, so I believe I do have a well-rounded base and can converse intelligently on a variety of subjects.

    If BSN's become a requirement, I maintain that BSN programs will need to retool their requirements to prepare their nurses to hit the floor running much better than they do now. There won't be any ADN's or LPN's to get them out of hot water like there are now. Have to say that I learned more from 2 aides who had 50 years of experience between them my first job out of nursing school than I did in school. No teacher like experience. And that goes for all of us, regardless of how much of the alphabet you are able to write after your name.
  13. by   Q.
    Quote from tntrn
    All agreed that getting a BSN would not: change the way we do our jobs, change our pay for the better, or increase the amount of respect we get from anybody. What we did agree on was that if a BSN becomes required, the nursing shortage will be far more critical than it is now considered, not only because fewer people will go into or be able to go into nursing, but most especially if current RNS's are not exempted in some way, they will be finding something else to do.
    This argument saddens me. This is moreso related to the comment (and wasn't sure if it was you or Deb or...?) that nursing schools need to change things and pump out RNs that can walk onto a floor and take a patient load. I mantain that is a huge disservice! I may sound crass, but the belief that that is what schools should do stems from a purely selfish mindset. Nursing education is not a factory that pumps out robots! And nor are we robots who just do tasks!

    Again, should professions determine professional standards based upon what is the easiest, most attainable credential for the public to get? (and by easy I don't mean "easy" intellectually; I mean easy as in accessibility) Is that really what we want dictating our standards?

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