BSN vs. Associates - page 5
I keep reading the topic about Dying career. I keep reading seeing what WE CAN DO. And what's brought up time and time again is associate nurses putting down bachelors and vice a versa. I thought I'd open a thread...because I... Read More
- 0Mar 6, '00 by HoJoOk, here's how I feel on higher education. If more nurses in the past would've went for their BSN in the first place. Then there would be more nurses with Ph.D's and Master's Degrees. I mean of course a nurse will eventually tire of their field if they first go through a diploma, then a Associates degree then BSN, then Masters, and finally then a Ph.D.
I mean doesn't it make sense to just start right off the bat and go for your BSN? That's is part of the reason why some people do not view nursing as a profession. Most just think of it as a job. To get the things which go along with a profession you first need to establish a good educational background.
I know that the BSN program which I attended was very diversified. We did Public Health Nursing and our some students from our school even presented their public health research project at the Public Health Nurse Convention. We also did Home Health, Community Mental Health (working with the homeless at a community outreach center).
I could go on for a while but what I'm saying is that a BSN is where nurses should start their career not eventually end up with a BSN. My BSN program was extremely well rounded and diversified.
- 0Mar 6, '00 by 4studentsHello fellow nurses and nursing students,
I agree with nurseperson. She has a legitimate concern when it comes to the distance to a BSN program. As technology improves, hopefully this will provide an opportunity for nurses in the rural areas to advance their education.
Jimbob mentioned that we need to remind others how important and worthy we are.
Other health professions such as physical therapists and pharmacists require advanced degrees. Whys shouldn't we expect the same from ourselves?
By obtaining our BS degrees we improve our knowledge base not only for our own benefit, but for the benefit of our profession and our patients.
Pediperson mentioned she has "no problem" finding a job with her ADN. Nothing can substitute her experience in her field, but we should keep up with the latest theories & models in management. She might learn new ways to improve the management of her department and it's resources.
I know that the "2 year program" actually takes 4 years because of the additional coursework. We should not be lulled into thinking this is all we need in a field that is always changing.
- 0Mar 6, '00 by ksfGreetings - and what a cool site. Okay, here's my schpeel on this topic. I have been an RN for 10 years, 8 of those in ICU, 1 in M/S, and 1 in home health. I graduated from an RN to BSN program in Dec. 99 (yeah!!). When I enrolled in the BSN program, the naive nurse in me thought, "Jeez, what are they going to teach me in this program" --boy, was I surprised. The BSN program enlightened me to nursing research, issues related to politics re: nursing, i.e. the needlestick legislation in congress, and taught me the holistics of nursing. My opinion is the ADN teaches the technical part of being a nurse - the BSN teaches the professional part of being a nurse - and experiences melds it together.
Thanks for listening, er, reading....
- 0Mar 7, '00 by chucklesrnThis is the first time I've visited this site. As I was looking around, I found this discussion. What a disappointment to see these posts. Although I don't have a book on nursing history on hand, there was a report issued around 1923 which recommended that all nurses should have a BSN. Margaret Freda wrote a nice editorial about this issue in the November/December issue of MCN (Vol. 24, No.6, pg.277). I think that anyone who looks at the larger picture needs to consider that the lack of formal education has impacted the working conditions and salary of nurses. Who would be conducting nursing research if all nurses had only ADN? It is also unfortunate that so many people who discuss this issue place no or little value on higher education. It is also unfortunate the number of subtle and not so subtle digs that non-BSN nurses direct towards those who have worked very hard to get a BSN.
As Dr. Freda states: "Every other health profession requires more education to practice than ours does." With all the advances in science and medicine, why do we find a two year degree acceptable. And to those who state that they cannot see a difference between a two year degree and a BSN, they cannot see because they don't know what they should be looking for. Nobody wants to elimate nurses who have two year degrees from practicing nursing. However, if you care about the profession of nursing, then you need to consider the BSN degree as the minimum degree for entry into practice.
- 0Mar 8, '00 by justanurseI have also been reading this, and what about those not so little digs the BSN's give to the ADN's? I enjoy doing bedside nursing and do not need a 4 year degree to pass the test to do that. Why should you think I should be required to spend all that extra money to do what I enjoy doing? I have heard that many people took 3-4 years to get a 2 year ADN, it is also possible to do in in just 2, as I did. Someone also mentioned that the BSN has a better understanding of budgets. What's with that? Anyone who helps to manage a home understands budgets, it doesn't take 4 years of education to figure it out. I am a good nurse, I have an ADN, I know other good nurses who are ADN's, and I know other good nurses who are BSN's. Reality is that in most places a 4 year degree will not get you anymore pay or perks than a 2 year degree. I find it equally hilarious that now some BSN's want to blame that on those of us who don't see the need to advance our careers with additional degrees. I prefer to advance my career by earning professional, job-related certifications and striving to improve my nursing and personal skills.
I do not look at any nurse to see if she is a ADN or BSN. I look at her for her skills and personalbility. I also value LPN's and PCA's for the roles that they play in patient care. We are all important, we all care about our patients. We should all be given equal value according to who we are and what we do, not because of what degree we carry. I am happy with my ADN, I do not choose to advance to BSN. For those who wish to get their BSN, great for you. Just remember, when you are caring for that patient, he/she doesn't care about your educational background he/she's looking to you for those skills that we all have, regardless of degree.
- 0Mar 8, '00 by nurseypersonSounds like Justanurse and I are twins. Ok, I have tried just to read and ride the fence, but I can't. I have posted about this previously and after reading some of the jabs about the ADNs, I have say more. As you can tell, I am an ADN.
Hojo has said many sterotypical things about ADNs. We cannot look wholistically at a patient, that we just look at their primary health problems. That we cannot adequately take care of Home Health patients. That we cannot delegate responsibility or collaberate on a multidiscinplinary level. (I took notes) and that we lack maturity getting out of school 2 years earlier. OK, here is goes.
I will tell you about me. There are many other ADNs who are JUST LIKE ME, but I will not lump everyone into one basket. I work in many areas: ICU, Neo ICU, ER, Outpatient Services and Home health just to name a few. I see the big picture. I very frequently use all resources for my patients, Social Services, preventative health services, etc. EVERY ADN I KNOW DOES THIS. We didn't have to be taught in school. It is common sense. As for home care, I do the care plans, contact many services and work with the parents of the home care patients in SO many aspects you have no idea. I have been a charge nurse for years, so I can delegate responsibility well. I have been a travel nurse and after working 2 weeks in the leading cardiac hospital in Dallas in CCU, I was charge nurse, not because I have BSN (they never even asked) but because I had what it took.
I have 4 years of college, just not all in nursing. And about ADNs being immature because they get out 2 years earlier...most of them had to take AT LEAST one year even before getting into nursing school for prerequisites. Ones that didn't put all that work into 2 years. Now I don't see that as immature. It takes a LOT of hard work. And you know that the average age of nurses is much higher now...lots of older people getting into it. So you can't say that a 30 year old mother of 3 is immature. As I said, don't stereotype us. I have seen immature BSNs, but I don't blame that on 4 years of school.
I have chosen not to obtain a BSN. I DO have ACLS, PALS, NALS, ABLS, and will soon take TNCC. I will also take the CCRN soon. I feel continuing education and certification are BETTER than more college just to say you have it. I also have taught critical care classes to the new grads. My coworkers (75% ADNs) do the same, and do it just as well as anyone. We don't just read it out of a book. We have lived it and the basis for our knowledge was 2 years of nursing.
I don't need Statistics or many of the other classes you must take for a BSN to tell me how to do my job. You cannot tell me the classes you had to take to get your BSN has made you a better nurse than I am. I have problably put in more classroom time than many BSNs.
If nurses want their BSN, fine. Just don't put the rest of us down. Do not say I am unique, because I am not. Sorry if I sound angry, but I want to stand up for myself and my fellow nurses. I am a Registered Nurse, not any more or less because of initials.
[This message has been edited by nurseyperson (edited March 08, 2000).]
- 0Mar 9, '00 by 4studentsI don't believe anyone is disputing the competency of ADNs. They make up the majority of nurses in practice today, and it is unrealistic to expect that requiring a BSN for entry into practice will be achieved anytime in the near future. However, a move toward this is inevitable if nursing is to be regarded as a "profession" vs. a "career," and it is this ideal that is the driving force behind the push for 4 year degrees. Why, when our colleagues in healthcare, ie. dieticians, physical therapists, pharmacists etc. are required to have an advanced degree to practice, should we expect less from nursing? Changes must be implemented that make it less costly and time consuming
for the ADNs to advance, but the bottom line is that until the standards are raised, we will not be regarded as equal players on the team, whose input is given the credence it deserves. In any other profession, additional education equals higher pay. Why is this not the case with ours? Because nursing as a whole has been regarded not only by the physicians, but by nurses themselves, as a skills based provider of services, and not integral to the decisions made regarding the course of action that will be initiated for a particular patient. A 1996 study published in the May issue of Clinical Nursing Research illustrates this point. After conducting interviews with physicians, critical care nurses, and seriously ill patients who were queried on their perceptions regarding nurses' influence on the decisions made by the patients with respect to the course of treatment, most of the physicians felt nurses had no (62%) or little (24%) influence. Even more alarming were the nurses' responses. The majority (77%) felt they had little or no influence on the plan of care. Will having a BSN change these perception? Probably not. But gaining the respect of other disciplines can be a starting point, and the only way to achieve this is to equal the playing field, in my opinion.
- 0Mar 12, '00 by MijourneyI am a diploma nurse who went back for my BSN. If I had it to do all over again, I don't know if it would be worth it. Most of the places I have worked based their decision to promote on sheer politics. On one or two occasions in my career was I ever paid a differential for having a BSN. However, I do feel that nursing categories need to be narrowed. Most of the allied health disciplines have just two categories of practitioners not including the graduate level. I think that, first, the BSN programs should have three years of clinical. Second, I feel that currently practicing LPNs should be grandfathered somehow into two year RNs.
- 0Mar 13, '00 by 4studentsFellow nurses,
Try not to take this issue personally. From some of the responses, it seems that some nurses are taking this as a personal attack. No names are mentioned.
The point of this discussion was not to say that one nurse is better than another. This forum was not developed to put down or attack fellow nurses. Most RNs are ADNs. The experience we have earned is invaluable and cannot be taught in the classroom. We can share our experience with new graduates.
When I mention that I am in school to pursue my BSN, some RNs respond, "Why?"
I have a problem with RNs who believe pursing a BSN is a waste of time. I have a problem with nurses who discourage others from pursuing a higher degree. I have a problem with nurses who feel there is no need to pursue further education. We should support one another.
You do not need a BSN to insert a Foley catheter or start an IV. You do not need a BSN to interpret hemodynamics. You do not need a BSN to obtain a blood pressure. If you choose to stop taking classes or furthering your education, that is your personal choice. However, there is so much more to nursing than patient care.
Some RNs talk about their personal accomplishments or experiences without a BSN.
What about the nursing profession and practice as a whole? What about the benefits or accomplishments that would have been missed if nurses felt that higher education was not necessary?
If you look at the nursing leaders of today, they have advanced degrees. Nursing theories and models are being developed by nurses with both experience and advanced degrees. Nurses perform medical research. Authors of nursing textbooks and journals have advanced degrees. Where do you think they learned to write journals and do research?
Nursing instructors require higher degrees. For those of us who graduated for an ADN or LVN program, were we taught by instructors with only ADN degrees? Can you imagine if our instructors were only ADN prepared? Why can't we just require future nursing instructors to have an ADN degree? Because the students, the college, the community and our nursing practice expect the instructors to meet certain standards.
Can you imagine if every nurse felt that all you need is an associate's degree? How would this affect our nursing profession?
We are trying to say that as health care professionals, education is valuable asset for the practice of nursing.
Once again, I am not saying that a BSN nurse is better than an ADN nurse or vice versa.
However, we should support our fellow collegues for pursuing an education. It doesn't even have to be a BSN degree. Just the fact that a nurse returns to school for more education should be acknowledged in a positive way.
- 0Mar 13, '00 by Darlene JonesTo the Four Student Nurses,
Thank you very much. Very well stated in your last post. I have detected a trememdous amount of hostility from some ADN and Diploma Nurses who imply that a person is a fool for obtaining a 4-year degree for the same pay and recognition as they have. I agree,if all you plan to do is bedside nursing. I don't plan to be a bedside nurse forever and that is the reason I chose the BSN. Thanks again for adding light to this discussion....Darlene