BSN vs ADN

[Grizabelle]

No... I do not want to get into which one is better.

I am in a BSN program, it was the best choice for me for a number of reasons and I am happy with that choice.

I am simply curious why some people say BSN nurses are "lost" on the floor when they get hired so they would rather have ADNs. I have a friend that is in an ADN program and we appear to have the same quantity of hours in clinicals, we do clinicals at mostly the same hospitals, the care plans we do sound pretty similar other than I have to do some additional work for mine. She does her classes in a compact format so instead of taking Psych and Care II each for a whole semester her program split the semester up and she did Psych half time and Care II half the time.... so in the fall semester we did the same classes except that I also had research and Gero. We have both been busy with school so havent had time to compare anything else other than I have the few random classes like Path, Research and leadership that she doesnt get... but taking those shouldn't make me less effective on the floor.

It sounds like its a reference to clinical experience but if the amount of clinical time is the same with the same random luck opportunity to actually do things like trach, ostomy or wound care. Random odds of starting IVs that either one of us may or may not get...

What is the difference and why is the assumption an ADN will have more practical experience?

Is this just an assumption that BSN nurses will be less task oriented?

[Susie2310]

Does having a Bachelors in a health field and an ADN give you a one up or equal BSN? I mean is the issue just not having a bachelors degree, since I feel the diff BTW the two degrees is the amt of gen ed courses which I've gone thru and completed with my BS. Just wondering

A bachelor's degree in a health field and an ADN are not equal to a BSN. The coursework for a BSN includes specific nursing courses. I bridged in to a BSN program after finishing my ADN and obtaining my RN, and had to take a public health class; advanced health assessment class; a nursing research class; do a community health practicum and a preceptorship, plus a few other nursing classes. The public health class requirement as part of the BSN requirements along with already having an RN license meant I was eligible to apply to my state board of nursing for certification as a public health nurse.

I don't remember the number of general education courses I had to take overall, and not knowing how many courses you had to take I can't make any comment on the differences.

I hope this helps to clarify.

[RNpearls1908]

So why is it that MSN programs will accept students with just a RN license (AND) and a BS in a health related field? I've looked into that like Rush University CRNA program that does this, an elite school. It's still somewhat confusing since for instance the public health class you speak of I've taken in undergrad. Not starting a debate just saying.

[sapphire18]

Just for the record ... there are some ADN programs that are as short as 15 months long (with no pre-req's). We have one such program in my area. Yes, it's a "for-profit" school.

I'm sorry, but that's disgusting. Really?? Just...wow.

[RNpearls1908]

Please let it be known that there are for profit schools that are offering BSN programs like West Coast University; and not just ADN.

[RNpearls1908]

Please let it be known that there are for profit schools that are offering BSN programs like West Coast University; and not just ADN.

My bad that came out confusing there are as much for profit schools awarding BSN just as ADN programs

[akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

In regards to Master of Science level Nursing programs:

They are looking for students that have a certain level of academic achievement. As part of their prerequisites, they are probably looking for certain types of coursework that is going to show them that you are able to absorb the information that you will be given. You do not necessarily need management training, public health training, or things like that to succeed in a Masters level program. You are probably going to need some type of research course, statistics course, and the like. That is probably what they are looking for in their students. An RN with that type of preparation will probably do just as well as a BSN, because they've had similar academic preparation that is geared more towards research.

That being said, a Bachelor Science in any field, even healthcare, does not equal a BSN because the BSN coursework typically include some classes that are not included in any other healthcare field.

Personally, I think that it is a folly to take the position that an RN that has a Bachelors of Science in a healthcare field is less capable of incorporating best evidence-based practices into their own practice than a BSN is. After all, many ADN programs are just as academically rigorous as BSN programs, without some of the public health and management coursework that the BSN programs do provide. The program that I was in until recently, is actively looking at petitioning to get their program recognized as a BSN program, that is taught at a junior college. They recognize that they will have to incorporate a little bit of new content that is not currently part of their curriculum, and should they be approved for that change in program status, they will simply add the missing content.

[DoGoodThenGo]

In regards to Master of Science level Nursing programs:

They are looking for students that have a certain level of academic achievement. As part of their prerequisites, they are probably looking for certain types of coursework that is going to show them that you are able to absorb the information that you will be given. You do not necessarily need management training, public health training, or things like that to succeed in a Masters level program. You are probably going to need some type of research course, statistics course, and the like. That is probably what they are looking for in their students. An RN with that type of preparation will probably do just as well as a BSN, because they've had similar academic preparation that is geared more towards research.

That being said, a Bachelor Science in any field, even healthcare, does not equal a BSN because the BSN coursework typically include some classes that are not included in any other healthcare field.

Personally, I think that it is a folly to take the position that an RN that has a Bachelors of Science in a healthcare field is less capable of incorporating best evidence-based practices into their own practice than a BSN is. After all, many ADN programs are just as academically rigorous as BSN programs, without some of the public health and management coursework that the BSN programs do provide. The program that I was in until recently, is actively looking at petitioning to get their program recognized as a BSN program, that is taught at a junior college. They recognize that they will have to incorporate a little bit of new content that is not currently part of their curriculum, and should they be approved for that change in program status, they will simply add the missing content.

Just so you know there is *BIG* drama going on about community/junior colleges being allowed to award BofS degrees. No other than University of Phoenix is leading the charge:

University Of Phoenix Lobbied Against Community College Expansion

[DoGoodThenGo]

So why is it that MSN programs will accept students with just a RN license (AND) and a BS in a health related field? I've looked into that like Rush University CRNA program that does this, an elite school. It's still somewhat confusing since for instance the public health class you speak of I've taken in undergrad. Not starting a debate just saying.

There are all manner and flavor of MSN programs that will take ADN/dipoma RNs to MSN and along the way award a BSN. Others will take those with an undergraduate degree in a non-nursing major and are dual BSN/MSN degrees. In the top tier of such programs would be the famed Columbia University BSN/MSN (ETP) school of nursing. Admissions Frequently Asked Questions

Columbia U has a *very* famous and great nursing education history but for various reasons discontinued their undergraduate program decades ago, in favour of masters and above nursing education. There is no way to obtain a BSN from Columbia without going for the MSN portion as well.

That being said for most of these MSN types of programs they are elite in that only a handful of applicants out of hundreds make the cut. Long story short we're still talking about seeking entry into graduate school and that is never easy, especially for top programs. Here is a bit of Columbia's process:

http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/nursing/admissions/pdf/GRE_ApplicationInformation.pdf

Now matter how "good" a nurse one is if you cannot muster the chops to obtain a good GRE score then your chances of being accepted at Columbia or any other top BSN to MSN etc... program are slim. As another posted stated these programs want to see applicants that can prove via past academic work they are able to handle graduate school.

[akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

Just so you know there is *BIG* drama going on about community/junior colleges being allowed to award BofS degrees. No other than University of Phoenix is leading the charge:

University Of Phoenix Lobbied Against Community College Expansion

I am not at all surprised that there is a big to do with community/junior colleges being allowed to award Bachelor of Science degrees. I am also not at all surprised that University of Phoenix is in fact leading the charge, because it goes against their business model. What they are looking for is to funnel community college students into their online bachelors programs. If a community college is offering a Bachelor of Science degree, that would certainly undercut some of their business.

Personally, I think that junior colleges should be allowed to offer Bachelor of Science degrees to certain select programs, such as nursing. The reason being that public health, statistics, etc. can be offered at the junior college level and those are typically the main differences in coursework between the bachelor of science and the Associates of science degrees in nursing.

In any event, I am certainly surprised that junior colleges are being allowed to offer and award Bachelor of Science Degrees, because I just amazed that they are allowed to do that. When I began going to college, the separation between community college and university level schools was very very clear. Community colleges could only offer and award Associate's Degrees and universities could offer Bachelors Degrees and above.

[Naturalist]

Just to give the OP an idea of what kind of things we ADN students learn, this has been my experience so far:

I just finished up 2nd semester last week.

Out of 18 weeks we were in the hospital 16. Two days/wk, 5.5 hrs/day.

I've been lucky to get a grand total of 2 foley cath insertions and one NG tube. Both with the instructor present.

For meds we do our 7 rights (we do 7, not 5) with our instructor, she walks in with us to our pt's room, sees that we are safe id'ing our pt then she leaves and we give the meds. If we are giving injections the instructor is always present.

I've lost count of how many insulin and lovenox shots I've given. Vaccines, too.

I have dc'd a few IVs and maybe 2 foleys without supervision. The first 2 or 3 we MUST do with our instructor.

This semster we hung IV bags- no meds- with our instructor present, and we also did tubing changes.

Next semester it is my understanding we will buddy up with a fellow student to do the 7 rights of med admin and we are on our own giving meds. Still our instructor will be pulling meds for us. We'll be doing IV meds as well. That's about all I know about next semester which isn't much.

Anyway, 4th semester students do their preceptorship the last 4 weeks I think- ICBW on the timeline- and if they have > an 80% avg they get to choose their specialty. Otherwise it's med-surg.

This semester we had about 6hrs of lecture/week (after you subtract break time).

So I've been told by the time we graduate we should be capable of carrying out all RN tasks except starting IVs, which we do learn and get tested on but will never actually do in clinical.

Since 1st semester we have lost ~10 people, either bc their grades weren't good enough or they were forced to drop due to poor clinical performance.

My school's NCLEX pass rate has been >97 or 98% for many many years.

Finally, I would like to add that I would have loved to go for a BSN but I didn't for 2 big reasons: #1 Two extra years in school and #2 The cost is prohibitive (and getting worse!).

I have a B.S. already so when I applied to the Nursing program my prereqs were already done!

Best of luck to you!

[RNpearls1908]

Just to give the OP an idea of what kind of things we ADN students learn, this has been my experience so far:

I just finished up 2nd semester last week.

Out of 18 weeks we were in the hospital 16. Two days/wk, 5.5 hrs/day.

I've been lucky to get a grand total of 2 foley cath insertions and one NG tube. Both with the instructor present.

For meds we do our 7 rights (we do 7, not 5) with our instructor, she walks in with us to our pt's room, sees that we are safe id'ing our pt then she leaves and we give the meds. If we are giving injections the instructor is always present.

I've lost count of how many insulin and lovenox shots I've given. Vaccines, too.

I have dc'd a few IVs and maybe 2 foleys without supervision. The first 2 or 3 we MUST do with our instructor.

This semster we hung IV bags- no meds- with our instructor present, and we also did tubing changes.

Next semester it is my understanding we will buddy up with a fellow student to do the 7 rights of med admin and we are on our own giving meds. Still our instructor will be pulling meds for us. We'll be doing IV meds as well. That's about all I know about next semester which isn't much.

Anyway, 4th semester students do their preceptorship the last 4 weeks I think- ICBW on the timeline- and if they have > an 80% avg they get to choose their specialty. Otherwise it's med-surg.

This semester we had about 6hrs of lecture/week (after you subtract break time).

So I've been told by the time we graduate we should be capable of carrying out all RN tasks except starting IVs, which we do learn and get tested on but will never actually do in clinical.

Since 1st semester we have lost ~10 people, either bc their grades weren't good enough or they were forced to drop due to poor clinical performance.

My school's NCLEX pass rate has been >97 or 98% for many many years.

Finally, I would like to add that I would have loved to go for a BSN but I didn't for 2 big reasons: #1 Two extra years in school and #2 The cost is prohibitive (and getting worse!).

I have a B.S. already so when I applied to the Nursing program my prereqs were already done!

Best of luck to you!

Thank you for showing that ADN programs are just as rigorous n hands on as BSN program. Also your reasons for choosing an ADN program are similiar to mine.

[RNpearls1908]

Personally, I think that it is a folly to take the position that an RN that has a Bachelors of Science in a healthcare field is less capable of incorporating best evidence-based practices into their own practice than a BSN is. After all, many ADN programs are just as academically rigorous as BSN programs, without some of the public health and management coursework that the BSN programs do provide. The program that I was in until recently, is actively looking at petitioning to get their program recognized as a BSN program, that is taught at a junior college. They recognize that they will have to incorporate a little bit of new content that is not currently part of their curriculum, and should they be approved for that change in program status, they will simply add the missing content.

Thanks for this and your entire response