BSN to practice ethical dilemma - where do you stand?

[sowelu88]

This debate is decades old and unresolved still. I would love any perspectives voiced as to why you are FOR or AGAINST having a BSN required in order to enter practice as an RN.

For the record I am against it.... feeling that we should be granted a grace period of ten years to aquire a BSN if we want to with some sort of reasonable incentive to do so. The wage increase is not enough to make the cost of schooling make sense for at least 10-15 years and we are in a country where grants and scholarships are hard work too. The lag time of implementing this would worsen the nursing shortages too and some of the best nurses I know are not highly "degreed"...

What are your feelings on this?

[AliveToday]

I am in a grueling associate degree program, and I certainly don't see what an extra chemistry class and a few more liberal arts courses would do to help me in the clinical environment.

I definitely don't think that a BSN should be required for an RN. The BSN is required for certain RN positions and for those who want to specialize. Isn't that enough?

[chaxanmom]

I am in a BSN program, but thanks for that helpful suggestion.

I spent 4 years getting my bachelors, and will graduate in May. One of my friends will have spent 5 years getting her ADN. Another is in her 3rd of 4 years, for her ADN. I looked at both programs when I decided which school to apply to - both the ADN and BSN programs in my area offer 2 years of clinicals and nursing-specific education. Maybe my area is unique, but that's the situation where I am and that is the situation upon which I base my opinion. 2 years = 2 years. I don't think the sociology class I took that they didn't have to, really makes me that much more prepared. But that's me.

The number of credit hours for each program is what? Sure you can take 5 years to get an AD, you can take 10 years if you like but the credit hours earned is the same and it's not the same number of credit hours as a bachelor's degree. That's just simple math.

[Serlait]

For heavens sake, can this poor dead horse not be left alone??? Shall we beat it some more???

Obviously, there are strong feelings on both sides. You think anything you're going to post on this space will change the thinking of those who are hard core?? These are issues we must resolve in our own minds. This bickering does nothing to further the profession. Instead of investing so much time deciding who's the smartest, bestest, etc etc etc why not invest in one another. I'm sure in the real world the ADN's will have something that can be shared with the BSN's and vice versa.

My dear ole daddy, who is the retired dean of a major medical school once told me that he made sure he spoke with every employee he encountered each day in the medical center. Didn't matter if it was the housekeeper or the kitchen staff or the DON or the big cheese in administration. He made sure that each and every one of these people knew without a doubt that their contribution to the wellbeing of the patients and the school was greatly appreciated. He valued teamwork and commitment and dedication to the patient and knew how important each person was to a well oiled machine. SOOOO....bottom line....we're all in this together. I urge all to examine their thoughts and prejudices and be open to one another. And per me dear ole Dad again....the best nurse he ever knew was the little nursing sister (nun) who had been trained in a hospital diploma program who would NOT give up when his precious baby daughter was so sick and dehydrated that it was almost impossible to get a line in. She worked tirelessly and patiently with much love to save his baby...me. It was the love and devotion and cussed determination that mattered. Not the initials after her name.

[jjjoy, LPN]

Many of the extra units required for a BSN are gen ed and upper division elective coursework... the courses that qualify the degree as a bachelor's degree but that aren't specific to the nursing major. Such courses are not always directly related to one's major. I took an interesting course on death and dying that counted as an upper division elective for nursing majors, psych majors, sociology majors, and maybe some other majors as well. These types of courses help develop well-roundedness but aren't directly helpful to the average nurse in day to day clinical work. Having studied some famous thinker on death won't help a nurse know what to when a patient codes or what potential side effects to look for or know what certain abnormal lab values mean.

Other "extra" courses that BSNs require, such as community health, research, leadership & professional issues, have been added to many ADN programs as well so it's hard to say across the board what "extra" nursing coursework BSN programs offer.

So while it's true that ADN program by definition do not offer alll the courses necessary to earn a bachelor's degree, it's also true that many ADN programs offer as much as 75% of the coursework that BSN programs do. And much of the the other 25% isn't directly related to the practice of nursing, making it seem irrelevant to a nurse who wants their investment further education to enhance their nursing practice. There currently is little reason for the average bedside nurse to want to jump through the BSN hoop if they are planning to continue working at the bedside.

[vashtee, RN]

The number of credit hours for each program is what? Sure you can take 5 years to get an AD, you can take 10 years if you like but the credit hours earned is the same and it's not the same number of credit hours as a bachelor's degree. That's just simple math.

The two year ADN programs do not include the prerequisite courses that (I believe) are included in a BSN program, such as English, math, history, psych, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, chemistry, etc. Add them all up, and yes - you ARE looking at 3 1/2 - 4 years.

[chaxanmom]

The two year ADN programs do not include the prerequisite courses that (I believe) are included in a BSN program, such as English, math, history, psych, anatomy, physiology, microbiology, chemistry, etc. Add them all up, and yes - you ARE looking at 3 1/2 - 4 years.

All the ones I've seen have. Those courses (with the exception of the basics that you should have taken in high school) are included in the number of credit hours for the program.

Example:

http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/curricula/descriptions/cdnurse.htm

[txspadequeenRN, BSN, RN]

:yeahthat:

For heavens sake, can this poor dead horse not be left alone??? Shall we beat it some more???

[TangoLima]

That sounded really bad. I don't know one ADN grad who would ever say they are "only" a ADN. Bad choice of words and quotes in my opinion.

Well, no joke. I know it sounds bad, that's why I said "I don't mean that to sound bad, but just trying to make a point." I personally don't have anything against an ADN, but I was trying to make a bigger point that there is too much contention between ADNs and BSNs and we should really focus on what will further the profession of nursing.

[hiddencatRN, BSN, RN]

"All the ones I've seen have."

Some ADN programs include the prereqs, some don't. It depends on where you are and what school you're looking at. My local CC includes them, BUT the program is so competitive that you do better with admissions if you already have the prereqs.

Here's an example of non-integrated prerequisites:

http://seattlecentral.edu/programs/nursing.php#crs

and another:

http://www.shoreline.edu/nurse.html

and another:

http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

and another:

http://www.tacomacc.edu/academics/areasofstudy/nursing/prerequisites.aspx

and another:

http://www.spscc.ctc.edu/academics/programs/ppg/nursing-admission-packet.pdf

and here's a 3-year ASN program:

http://www.laf.ivytech.edu/degree_programs/programs.php?prog=Nursing%20ASN

Remember: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It might be helpful to consider that your experience might not be universal.

[chaxanmom]

"All the ones I've seen have."

Some ADN programs include the prereqs, some don't. It depends on where you are and what school you're looking at. My local CC includes them, BUT the program is so competitive that you do better with admissions if you already have the prereqs.

Here's an example of non-integrated prerequisites:

http://seattlecentral.edu/programs/nursing.php#crs

and another:

http://www.shoreline.edu/nurse.html

and another:

http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

and another:

http://www.tacomacc.edu/academics/areasofstudy/nursing/prerequisites.aspx

and another:

http://www.spscc.ctc.edu/academics/programs/ppg/nursing-admission-packet.pdf

and here's a 3-year ASN program:

http://www.laf.ivytech.edu/degree_programs/programs.php?prog=Nursing%20ASN

Remember: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It might be helpful to consider that your experience might not be universal.

Right but they are still included in the credit hours on these which is what we were trying to say. For example the pcc link says 55 nursing and 51 support even if you take all the pre-reqs and then all the nursing. Anyway, the point was that yes a bachelor's degree still requires more credit hours TOTAL than an associate's degree. Hey I'm not saying ADN nurses shouldn't practice or anything, just saying an associate's degree is not a bachelor's degree. That's not really something that's even debatable.

[hiddencatRN, BSN, RN]

Hey I'm not saying ADN nurses shouldn't practice or anything, just saying an associate's degree is not a bachelor's degree. That's not really something that's even debatable.

It seems like the question is actually to what extent they differ, not do they differ. How do clinical hours compare? Material covered? Liberal Arts Electives? Length of program? Cost? Overall preparation?

I'd be interested in looking at the studies that show better outcomes for patients of BSN nurses. I'm wondering to what extent they account for the socioeconomic background of the nurses- associate degrees tend to be more accessible for non-traditional students, students without a lot of economic support, students with other commitments.

I'd rather do an accelerated BSN because it will take me LESS time to complete, but I'm coming to the realization that there just might be no way on earth for me to afford it with my Stafford nearly tapped from my first degree, poor credit and no one to cosign student loans. So as of right now, I'm awful glad that there isn't a BSN entry requirement to nursing. And from what my paramedic fiance tells me, the community college graduates have a reputation in our town for being better prepared to start working as nurses.

[chaxanmom]

It seems like the question is actually to what extent they differ, not do they differ. How do clinical hours compare? Material covered? Liberal Arts Electives? Length of program? Cost? Overall preparation?

I'd be interested in looking at the studies that show better outcomes for patients of BSN nurses. I'm wondering to what extent they account for the socioeconomic background of the nurses- associate degrees tend to be more accessible for non-traditional students, students without a lot of economic support, students with other commitments.

I'd rather do an accelerated BSN because it will take me LESS time to complete, but I'm coming to the realization that there just might be no way on earth for me to afford it with my Stafford nearly tapped from my first degree, poor credit and no one to cosign student loans. So as of right now, I'm awful glad that there isn't a BSN entry requirement to nursing. And from what my paramedic fiance tells me, the community college graduates have a reputation in our town for being better prepared to start working as nurses.

I don't know that there's much, if any, difference in bedside care AFAIK. The difference is mainly in how a BSN requirement affects the profession as a whole. The trend is toward more education for ALL professions so why not nursing? Eventually it's going to catch up with us. I agree that ADN programs tend to attract non-traditional students with less economic support, etc. What I would like to see is more RN-BSN programs. I think distance programs are awesome because it allows you to get more education while juggling other commitments. I think RNs should be encouraged to get their BSN but I do think ADN programs are a necessary stepping stone to get your foot in the door for a lot of people. I think one of the things the ANA could be doing is working on more educational grants for nursing education, particularly for LPNs and ADNs to afford BSN programs. I think BSNs are best for the profession but yeah I see the difficulties that are there for getting a BSN too.