Would you assist in abortions? - page 25

I am just curious. Would you ever work in an abortion clinic? Would you give pills that would cause an abortion? Thanks... Read More

  1. by   fergus51
    Ethics classes always have been a little theoretical and miss the point..... LEGAL rights are not always free. For instance, you have a right to rent a home regarless of your ethnicity. You'll have to pay for the rent, but you still have that right in our country. A black person can't be turned away from a lunch counter in the south, but they still have to pay for the food. Access to abortion is about the LEGAL right for women to decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.

    Morality is not legislated, that's why people have the right to do certain things you would consider immoral. It is immoral to cheat on your husband, but I don't see you getting arrested if you do it because we recognize that legislating morality is not a road we want to go down.

    Personally, I don't consider abortion immoral before viability. I have no negative feelings towards a woman who chooses abortion at all. I don't think it's any of my business.
    Last edit by fergus51 on May 4, '04
  2. by   sbic56
    Morality is not legislated, that's why people have the right to do certain things you would consider immoral. It is immoral to cheat on your husband, but I don't see you getting arrested if you do it because we recognize that legislating morality is not a road we want to go down.
    Yes, fergus! This is the voice of reason speaking. Is everybody listening?
  3. by   Laura2000mi
    Quote from fergus51
    Ethics classes always have been a little theoretical and miss the point..... LEGAL rights are not always free. For instance, you have a right to rent a home regarless of your ethnicity. You'll have to pay for the rent, but you still have that right in our country. A black person can't be turned away from a lunch counter in the south, but they still have to pay for the food. Access to abortion is about the LEGAL right for women to decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy.

    Morality is not legislated, that's why people have the right to do certain things you would consider immoral. It is immoral to cheat on your husband, but I don't see you getting arrested if you do it because we recognize that legislating morality is not a road we want to go down.

    Personally, I don't consider abortion immoral before viability. I have no negative feelings towards a woman who chooses abortion at all. I don't think it's any of my business.
    Okay, I concede that alot of people are not going to agree with me regarding the rights/free issue. So be it.

    But I do not agree with you when you say that morality is not legistated. Stealing, murder, breach of contract...all immoral, all illegal. If abortion can be proven to be immoral, why not legislate against it? Is society to the point where we think to ourselves "as long as I am not the one doing the bad thing, then who cares what everyone else does?" I don't see why legislating morality would be a bad thing.
  4. by   TDub
    "But do you assist for free?"



    Oh no, I'm compensated. Besides the fact I rarely do anything for free, I wouldn't be covered under the hospital's malpractice insurance.

    I'm very interested to see what happens with the government if and/or when they are able to subpoena the records at my hospital for D and Es. They are calling them "partial birth" abortions. As I understand PBAs, a DandE is not one. As my name is plastered all over those records, I might have to pay more than lip service to the idea of freedom of choice.
  5. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Quote from fergus51
    I have no negative feelings towards a woman who chooses abortion at all. I don't think it's any of my business.
    I TOTALLY AGREE!
  6. by   fergus51
    Quote from Laura2000mi
    Okay, I concede that alot of people are not going to agree with me regarding the rights/free issue. So be it.

    But I do not agree with you when you say that morality is not legistated. Stealing, murder, breach of contract...all immoral, all illegal. If abortion can be proven to be immoral, why not legislate against it? Is society to the point where we think to ourselves "as long as I am not the one doing the bad thing, then who cares what everyone else does?" I don't see why legislating morality would be a bad thing.
    We legislate against those things to promote order in society and to protect citizens. If you can prove that legislating against abortion would protect citizens, it would be doable. The key there is proving that fetuses are people and that isn't gonna be easy.

    Legislating against immorality is problematic because it brings up A LOT of issues. For instance, I think divorce is immoral. Should that make it illegal? Think about it for a minute. What if your idea of morality is different than mine (I don't think abortion is immoral remember)? Whose morality do we go with? You could say the morality of the majority, but then the question becomes should rights be voted on and decided by majority rules? If so, are they really rights at all? Not to mention how does legislating morality mesh with our consitution and our founding laws and beliefs (most Americans don't want the government in their bedroom)? What is to form the basis for our moral laws? Religion? Whose religion? Isn't that what we criticize in Saudi Arabia and Iran? How will we enforce morality laws? What will the penalties be? Where does it end?

    There is a lot there to think about....
  7. by   sbic56
    Fantastic reply, fergus! Ever think of running for office?
  8. by   Laura2000mi
    Quote from fergus51
    We legislate against those things to promote order in society and to protect citizens. If you can prove that legislating against abortion would protect citizens, it would be doable. The key there is proving that fetuses are people and that isn't gonna be easy.

    Legislating against immorality is problematic because it brings up A LOT of issues. For instance, I think divorce is immoral. Should that make it illegal? Think about it for a minute. What if your idea of morality is different than mine (I don't think abortion is immoral remember)? Whose morality do we go with? You could say the morality of the majority, but then the question becomes should rights be voted on and decided by majority rules? If so, are they really rights at all? Not to mention how does legislating morality mesh with our consitution and our founding laws and beliefs (most Americans don't want the government in their bedroom)? What is to form the basis for our moral laws? Religion? Whose religion? Isn't that what we criticize in Saudi Arabia and Iran? How will we enforce morality laws? What will the penalties be? Where does it end?

    There is a lot there to think about....
    First of all, the key is not proving that fetuses are people, since they obviously become people, it is proving that they are not.

    Citizens are arguably people within a country. Until you can prove that fetuses are not people, they are citizens and deserve the same governmental protection as their adult counterparts.

    Furthermore, animals aren't citizens either, so if legislation has to be for the protection of citizens (as you stated), then there is no reason for anti-animal abuse legislation.

    Legislating against immorality is the ONLY reason for legislation. What non-moral issues require legislation? Stealing? Murder? Rape? Slavery? Arson?

    Also, morality IS enforced and legislated here, however, unlike Saudi Arabia and Iran, we decide what is moral and immoral in our legal system by voting.

    Since religion is not going to fairly apply the same rules to everyone, then a standard (which by definition is a universal benchmark) must be found that can be equally applied to ALL. This standard is logical reasoning.

    If arguing that this (ethics) can only apply in the classroom where it was introduced, then what is the meaning and/or use of the degrees and certifications that allow us to practice? If you take a biology class, or an anatomy class, does that only apply to academia? Ethics then, is just as relevant (or irrelevant) in the "real world" as any other class that you may take.

    (In no way was the above paragraph an attack or derogatory statement about degrees, certifications, or those who have them.)
    Last edit by Laura2000mi on May 4, '04
  9. by   fergus51
    Quote from sbic56
    Fantastic reply, fergus! Ever think of running for office?
    Well, I can't run for president since I was born in Canada, so I figured why bother
  10. by   fergus51
    Quote from laura2000mi
    first of all, the key is not proving that fetuses are people, since they obviously become people, it is proving that they are not.

    citizens are arguably people within a country. until you can prove that fetuses are not people, they are citizens and deserve the same governmental protection as their adult counterparts.

    you used the key word there: "become". criminal law is excplicit for a reason. it is not meant to be stretched. unless something "is" right now, it can't be considered for the law. a fetus is currently not considered a person under the law. that means if you want to change the law, you have to change the law's view of fetuses through new legislation. that's a double edged sword, but there nonetheless

    furthermore, animals aren't citizens either, so if legislation has to be for the protection of citizens (as you stated), then there is no reason for anti-animal abuse legislation.

    anti-animal abuse laws do have to do with morality, they also have to do with property and cruelty. it also has to do with the fact that an animal is an independent living creature (not true of a fetus). even if i thought that was a reason to give fetuses the same protection, you would have to deal with the fact that it is perfectly acceptable and legal to kill an animal humanely and quickly. (and even in cases of gross torture, the punishment is almost nothing)

    legislating against immorality is the only reason for legislation. what non-moral issues require legislation? stealing? murder? rape? slavery? arson?

    there are actually a lot of laws that are not really morally based anymore. look at gun laws. you can be put in jail for not registering a gun, even if it hasn't harmed anyone. i don't think not filling out paperwork is imoral, but it'll get me a night in jail anyways. same thing if i try to import a piece of salami into canada from britain. now, salami isn't immoral by my standards but a customs officer doesn't really care...

    also, morality is enforced and legislated here, however, unlike saudi arabia and iran, we decide what is moral and immoral in our legal system by voting.

    laws are enforced here, not morality. morality covers much more. some laws are morally wrong, others aren't (murder vs salami importation). now you could argue salami importation is immoral, but you can't argue that means that laws are all about morality because some immoral acts are illegal, others aren't (rape vs adultery). they are not the same thing for good reason. i don't think it was an accident made by our forefathers.

    since religion is not going to fairly apply the same rules to everyone, then a standard (which by definition is a universal benchmark) must be found that can be equally applied to all. this standard is logical reasoning.

    i could agree with that if i thought it was possible. the fact is, i consider myself to be pretty good at logical reasonning. i like to take both sides of an argument and play devil's advocate. by your posts, i can tell you are also a reasonable person with logical arguments. the fact that we can both be reasonable people (at least in my opinion) and come to opposing conclusions regarding abortion is evidence that legislating some equal standard of morality based on logic is problematic at best, impossible at worst.

    if arguing that this (ethics) can only apply in the classroom where it was introduced, then what is the meaning and/or use of the degrees and certifications that allow us to practice? if you take a biology class, or an anatomy class, does that only apply to academia? ethics then, is just as relevant (or irrelevant) in the "real world" as any other class that you may take.

    (in no way was the above paragraph an attack or derogatory statement about degrees, certifications, or those who have them.)

    i don't mean to imply that courses are never useful or worthwhile. i am a big advocate for continuing education. i actually liked my ethics class because it involved respectful debate, which i obviously like. my comment just reflects the fact that ethics are supremely fluid. you can find an ethical argument for and against almost anything. it was actually our final exam in my class. that's why i think it isn't always useful in making decions in real life problems.

    for instance, one of my favorite ideas was utilitarianism. what produces the most good for the most people should be what is done, all things being equal. the ends justify the means. if sacrificing one person would save 10, then i would be ethically ok in killing them. then a friend said that was just stupid because all things are never equal. what if the person i had to sacrifice was my child and the others were strangers? plus if murder is wrong, why should i get a pass for any reason? isn't murder still murder? plus how much "good" does an act have to produce to allow me to murder someone? it's really relative. ethics classes are great places for debates and expanding your mind, but i don't think they are great places to write new laws for all citizens. ok, done blabbing now....
    ....................
  11. by   Beach_Nurse
    I Really Need To Think This Over
  12. by   sbic56
    I never realized just how well you articulate such a logical thought process, fergus. You are good! I certainly wouldn't want to be on the opposite side of a debate with you, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts!
  13. by   Justus
    fergus...you are exactly the kind of person I would want to debate. Thanks for listening to all sides, playing devils advocate, we could do with more of that. I look forward to more thought provoking posts.

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