mother dies after refusing blood transfusion - page 16

A very sad story from England.... Read More

  1. by   NavyVet
    Stevie,
    I gotta give ya credit for making a good point. I did make a bit of an ginormous generalization by painting all people of faith with the same brush, my bad.

    I can freely say that I have met some religious people who are able to carry on a lively intellectual debate about weighty topics, some of those people were even on this board I appreciate people I can carry a conversation with who are able to make a reasonable argument for what they believe. As I've alluded to previously I'm a man with more questions than answers.

    I know not *all* religious people are fanatical. I know not *all* are ignorant sheep. I guess when I think of religious people I think of the ultra-conservative bible thumpers who try to cram their beliefs down your throat, then get all huffy and irate when you start poking holes in their beliefs. Those holier than thou folks who want to share the bible's word with me every time they think I'm doing something wrong. But you're right, that is my stereotype and my problem.

    This is what I don't understand.
    "I also respect the right of Jehovah's Witnesses to refuse blood products. I don't characterize them as unintelligent - I simply don't agree with their interpretation." You and a few other people have said something along these lines. How can you believe someone is wrong, has a fundamental flaw in their thinking, and still think they have a brain in their head? It seems like your trying to be nice and spare someone's feelings rather than be honest. How can you hold a belief you know to be true (regardless if it is or not, you believe it is) and not judge the person who is opposite your belief an idiot? I think its just human nature to make those sort of judgments.

    As an aside, since you mentioned C.S. Lewis.... I think I started reading some of his work when I was in my early teens. I was all happy to have found a new (to me) series author to read. I don't recall exactly where I was in the first book when I started to get that deja vu feeling. All this seems kind of familiar...where have I heard this stuff before.... Son of a....I'm reading a religious parable! The sneaky bastard turned one of my favorite pastimes into a sunday school lesson. I was a tad p.o.'ed over that. I really wish he would have stated what the book was in the jacket synopsis, at least then I would have had a choice of whether or not I wanted to invest my time in a many volumed sermon. I did enjoy Tolkien though
  2. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from NavyVet

    This is what I don't understand.
    "I also respect the right of Jehovah's Witnesses to refuse blood products. I don't characterize them as unintelligent - I simply don't agree with their interpretation." You and a few other people have said something along these lines. How can you believe someone is wrong, has a fundamental flaw in their thinking, and still think they have a brain in their head? It seems like your trying to be nice and spare someone's feelings rather than be honest. How can you hold a belief you know to be true (regardless if it is or not, you believe it is) and not judge the person who is opposite your belief an idiot? I think its just human nature to make those sort of judgments.


    You kind of sound like my very conservative husband. He thinks all liberals are simply not very smart. Otherwise, how could they believe as they do?

    I disagree. I think people on all sides of an issue can be intelligent.

    Plus I'm 50 - I've learned not to be judgmental or try very hard not to be judgmental. I don't call people names ("idiot").

    You should have met me when I was in my 20's though - omg, so opinionated and outspoken and in someone's face about my liberal philosophies. Who wants to listen to someone thumping you over the head with their belief system?

    steph
  3. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from stevielynn
    You kind of sound like my very conservative husband. He thinks all liberals are simply not very smart. Otherwise, how could they believe as they do?

    I disagree. I think people on all sides of an issue can be intelligent.

    Plus I'm 50 - I've learned not to be judgmental or try very hard not to be judgmental. I don't call people names ("idiot").

    You should have met me when I was in my 20's though - omg, so opinionated and outspoken and in someone's face about my liberal philosophies. Who wants to listen to someone thumping you over the head with their belief system?

    steph

    Steph, I'm 38. Is it okay for me to laugh at the hubris of youth?

    How can you believe someone is wrong, has a fundamental flaw in their thinking, and still think they have a brain in their head?

    That's pretty funny. If they disagree with me, they must be stupid! It's cute....
  4. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    Steph, I'm 38. Is it okay for me to laugh at the hubris of youth?




    That's pretty funny. If they disagree with me, they must be stupid! It's cute....
    You are only 38? Well . . . I'll make an exception - yeah, you can laugh.

    steph
  5. by   NavyVet
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    Steph, I'm 38. Is it okay for me to laugh at the hubris of youth?
    That's pretty funny. If they disagree with me, they must be stupid! It's cute....
    Heya SharonH,

    Don't make the mistake of thinking youth = lack of knowledge/intellect/experience/wisdom. I've spent time in Europe, Caribbean Islands, Canada, South America, and the Middle East, experiencing cultures that most people my age and even older have no idea about. I have a chest full of medals and ribbons as testament to my contribution to the world. I am well versed in mechanical engineering and jet propulsion with a fair decent understanding of electrical engineering to boot. I was in the honors program in high school. I have over 80 credit hours under my belt and I'm carrying a 3.78 GPA through nursing school with a 28 ACT and an IQ in the mid 130's. I'm well read and able to easily carry a conversation on most topics. I excel at pretty much everything I try. My confidence in myself and my viewpoints is well deserved and hard earned. Even though I'm stuffed to the gills with hubris, I'm still able to admit when someone with an opposing view makes a good point.

    I don't think your advanced years gives you free reign to condescend to me. My views are just as valid as anyones (more so imo since their mine ). Furthermore, I believe your not being honest with yourself or the rest of us here if your implying that you don't get irritated when discussing a topic with someone who just doesn't see your viewpoint. I know when I get irritated, I tend to think poorly of the person providing the irritation. So yeah, I think people who disagree with me aren't very smart. The beauty of my system is the opposing party is free to think I'm an idiot as well, (your not going to hurt my feelings). Thats your prerogative.

    If you have a valid point to make or want to debate a topic, then please make a post of substance and I'll be happy to talk with you. I enjoy the verbal sparring. However, if you do have something to say to/about me, I'd appreciate it if you addressed me rather than make another catty condescending comment. :smiley_abHave a good day.
    Last edit by NavyVet on Nov 26, '07
  6. by   WindyhillBSN
    Quote from hvnsntrn
    i never suggested that this was a decision that was handled in a cavalier manner, that it was not agonizing, or that it was made without weighing the possible outcomes. why do you assume that i feel otherwise, when my statement very succinctly summarizes exactly what delvenia posted, less than 10 minutes following yours:



    so, is delvenia, one of jehovah's witnesses, lying too?

    isn't it true that ultimately, the decision to refuse blood treatment by a jw is so that they can demonstrate their integrity to jehovah? isn't it true that jws believe that failure to do so will result in jehovah's disapproval and they may not receive forgiveness from god for failing to prove their integrity - meaning they will not be resurrected in the earthly paradise / be reunited with loved ones by being resurrected? to me, that sounds like a god who is "offended" and who is neither merciful nor forgiving.

    i am not interested in debating with you, sharon. you can believe whatever you choose and i respect and uphold your right to do so, and the same should go for me. i don't have to agree with your beliefs or even respect those beliefs, but i do respect your right to have those beliefs.

    fwiw, i am someone who almost died as a result of wanting to demonstrate my integrity to jehovah. so is my mother. i would ask you kindly not to characterize me as someone who knows nothing about what jehovah's witnesses believe, or as someone "with an axe to grind". that's very disrespectful of you with regard to my beliefs, don't you think? why are you so disrespectful of me?

    i disagree with the watch tower society's current position on blood transfusion. i believe that it will ultimately become a matter of conscience, just as organ transplants went from being forbidden to a matter of personal conscience. all indicators, by way modifications in the fractions that are allowed to the sworn statement before the european commission on human rights regarding bulgarian jws having full freedom to accept blood transfusions without sanction, point to that eventuality.

    can we just cancel this thread please!!!!!! these are other personal issues that have nothing to do with that poor woman and her babies.
    Last edit by WindyhillBSN on Nov 26, '07
  7. by   cmo421
    Quote from NavyVet
    Heya SharonH,

    Don't make the mistake of thinking youth = lack of knowledge/intellect/experience/wisdom. I've spent time in Europe, Caribbean Islands, Canada, South America, and the Middle East, experiencing cultures that most people my age and even older have no idea about. I have a chest full of medals and ribbons as testament to my contribution to the world. I am well versed in mechanical engineering and jet propulsion with a fair decent understanding of electrical engineering to boot. I was in the honors program in high school. I have over 80 credit hours under my belt and I'm carrying a 3.78 GPA through nursing school with a 28 ACT and an IQ in the mid 130's. I'm well read and able to easily carry a conversation on most topics. I excel at pretty much everything I try. My confidence in myself and my viewpoints is well deserved and hard earned. Even though I'm stuffed to the gills with hubris, I'm still able to admit when someone with an opposing view makes a good point.

    I don't think your advanced years gives you free reign to condescend to me. My views are just as valid as anyones (more so imo since their mine ). Furthermore, I believe your not being honest with yourself or the rest of us here if your implying that you don't get irritated when discussing a topic with someone who just doesn't see your viewpoint. I know when I get irritated, I tend to think poorly of the person providing the irritation. So yeah, I think people who disagree with me aren't very smart. The beauty of my system is the opposing party is free to think I'm an idiot as well, (your not going to hurt my feelings). Thats your prerogative.

    If you have a valid point to make or want to debate a topic, then please make a post of substance and I'll be happy to talk with you. I enjoy the verbal sparring. However, if you do have something to say to/about me, I'd appreciate it if you addressed me rather than make another catty condescending comment. :smiley_abHave a good day.


    You have to admit, he writes a great comeback! lol Well said!
  8. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from NavyVet
    Heya SharonH,

    Don't make the mistake of thinking youth = lack of knowledge/intellect/experience/wisdom. I've spent time in Europe, Caribbean Islands, Canada, South America, and the Middle East, experiencing cultures that most people my age and even older have no idea about. I have a chest full of medals and ribbons as testament to my contribution to the world. I am well versed in mechanical engineering and jet propulsion with a fair decent understanding of electrical engineering to boot. I was in the honors program in high school. I have over 80 credit hours under my belt and I'm carrying a 3.78 GPA through nursing school with a 28 ACT and an IQ in the mid 130's. I'm well read and able to easily carry a conversation on most topics. I excel at pretty much everything I try. My confidence in myself and my viewpoints is well deserved and hard earned. Even though I'm stuffed to the gills with hubris, I'm still able to admit when someone with an opposing view makes a good point.

    I don't think your advanced years gives you free reign to condescend to me. My views are just as valid as anyones (more so imo since their mine ). Furthermore, I believe your not being honest with yourself or the rest of us here if your implying that you don't get irritated when discussing a topic with someone who just doesn't see your viewpoint. I know when I get irritated, I tend to think poorly of the person providing the irritation. So yeah, I think people who disagree with me aren't very smart. The beauty of my system is the opposing party is free to think I'm an idiot as well, (your not going to hurt my feelings). Thats your prerogative.

    If you have a valid point to make or want to debate a topic, then please make a post of substance and I'll be happy to talk with you. I enjoy the verbal sparring. However, if you do have something to say to/about me, I'd appreciate it if you addressed me rather than make another catty condescending comment. :smiley_abHave a good day.

    Hi NavyVet, thanks for outlining your intellectual/educational background. Unfortunately for the purposes of this discussion, it just doesn't matter. I'm sorry you felt condescended to, perhaps your youth/intellect will allow you to reflect on what may have led to the "catty condescending coment"

    You and a few other people have said something along these lines. How can you believe someone is wrong, has a fundamental flaw in their thinking, and still think they have a brain in their head? It seems like your trying to be nice and spare someone's feelings rather than be honest. How can you hold a belief you know to be true (regardless if it is or not, you believe it is) and not judge the person who is opposite your belief an idiot? I think its just human nature to make those sort of judgments.
    I guess you don't see it, but nearly every statement you have made regarding this matter reeks of condescension. And FWIW I did think it was funny, your intellectual superiority notwithstanding. The idea that if someone views a subject differently then they are an idiot is pretty hilarious. One advantage of advancing age is that you learn that different life experiences can lead people to a different conclusion and viewpoint from yourself and that doesn't necessarily make them stupid or wrong, they just see it differently from you. Of course, some people never learn that lesson and it's less cute when a geezer thinks that way but what can you do?


    As for sparring with you, sorry I'm not interested. I don't care that much. My interest in this topic waxes and wanes which is why I didn't join until page 17 or so and I am already bored with it again. Perhaps another time......
  9. by   NavyVet
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    .
    1)I'm sorry you felt condescended to, perhaps your youth/intellect will allow you to reflect on what may have led to the "catty condescending coment"

    2)I guess you don't see it, but nearly every statement you have made regarding this matter reeks of condescension.

    3)As for sparring with you, sorry I'm not interested. I don't care that much.
    SharonH,
    You're right, this stuff does get to be tiresome and I'm sure we both have better things to do. However, allow me to address a couple of your concerns. Please forgive me for paraphrasing and listing your prior comments in an easier to respond to manner.

    1) First, you don't get to blame me for your rudeness. I didn't make you type anything, so don't use me as an excuse for your actions. Own them, take responsibility for them, defend them if you must....but please don't try to pass the buck.

    2) The next item on your list, my condescension. Your right. I don't agree with you, or people that think as you do. If you don't want to listen to people that have opposing views, then don't post your views and I'll be more than happy to keep my mouth shut. Its a two way street there ma'am. Just because your 'religious' doesn't make you more correct than I. The difference between your condescension and mine is that I did not target YOU specifically, I merely stated my views in opposition to religion in general. The other difference is that I was willing to personally call you on your rudeness, whereas you wanted to try and be cute about it. If I said something to bug you, then you should have been an adult about it and pointed out what I said to offend you. Whether or not I thought you were right or wrong, I most likely would have issued an apology for offending you personally since I don't know you and have no desire to disrespect any one person. If you've read this thread in its entirety, then you would see where someone has chosen to speak with me about my views and I have apologized for whatever specific thing I said to offend them. Some people have pointed out when I was making sweeping generalizations, and I admitted my mistake. You however, don't. You blame me for your actions, very classy.

    3) Finally, if you so desire, its well within your rights to bow out of any conversation that no longer interests you. Truth be told I would have probably done it by now myself, but I couldn't let the tirades of the past week go unchallenged and more importantly .....I was bored.
    For what its worth, I posted that personal information about myself so you would have some idea of who you were talking to, rather than allowing you to labor under the false assumption that I was some unintelligent, uneducated, ignorant scrub, undeserving of common decency and respect.
    Good day to you madam.
  10. by   Djuna
    There's that word again 'Madam'.

    Why do men insist they are merely being polite when they use that word when in fact, they are using the word to be annoyingly superior?

    A madam is the owner of a whorehouse where I come from.
  11. by   NavyVet
    lol,
    I never meant to imply that anyone was affiliated with a whorehouse by the use of the word madam. I was only thinking of it as a polite title like miss, mrs., ma'am. I didn't think of any possible negative connotations associated with it since I did not intend to use the word as a slander. I wonder if that is more of a cultural difference between the U.S. and Australia? The only legal brothels in the states that I know of are in Nevada, far away from me....one of those out of sight out of mind things.
  12. by   Silverdragon102
    Gentle reminder that we all have our own opinions and we may not always agree but we need to respect others and their opinions. This board is a great way to learn about other religions but at the end of the day we are nurses and should ensure that our patients are informed as much as possible and support them in the decisions they make even if we do not agree with it.

    As part of TOS we will not tolerate what we see as personal attacks and will edit or delete any threads that appear to be heading in that direction. If you feel that you are receiving some form of attack do not engage them but report them and allow the mod team to do their job.
  13. by   Silverdragon102
    Closed for moderator's review

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