mother dies after refusing blood transfusion

RN Randy · Nov 25, 2007

I agree with everything you said except for the first part. You are right, they dont compare. God is much more significant. Are you saying that you owe more reverance to a country than to God who created you? Are you saying that it's okay to die for other immortal men that cant save you, but it is stupid to die for your creator? I dont understand that, but maybe I am reading it incorrectly and that is not what you meant.
Niether the less, I think you hit everything else right on the nail in your last statement. It is a matter of choice and should be respected...

Mercy... let's not look for a fight where one doesn't exist....

Paraphrasing with words like "stupid" only ruffle feathers.

I'll rephrase my whole first statement:

"Bad analogy... *risking* life and *accepting* death is apples/oranges.

That's all I meant. Sorry for the crypto.

rb

Sabby_NC · Nov 25, 2007

The original article was to posted for responses but I am saddened how this has now turned into a slinging match.

Are we all professionals here?

We are right? Correct me if I am wrong.

We have the right to express our thoughts and feelings but to be rude to each other does not show any professionalism to anyone.

As long as our beliefs and thoughts do not cloud our work ethics then we are ok.

Please do consider each one's feelings.

Discussing Religion is always going to be a hot topic but again we all have our own beliefs and no amount of arguing will change it.

I think this thread has truly gone past its used by date.

I wish all my nursing collegues here a wonderfully blessed Sunday.

delvenia · Nov 25, 2007

you are comparing apples to oranges, delvenia. assuming my thoughts on war, you call me a hypocrite before you know my answer to your question. i'll let you know right now that i do not intend to get drawn into your false analogy, despite my pacifist convictions.
if you read sharon's post, she was offended too. otherwise she would not have characterized me as a liar and as someone with an axe to grind, despite your confirmation of my statement.
you don't want to take advantage of him and his kindness, and you want to please him because you love him and appreciate the gift of life that came from him. yet you also believe that if you do not show your integrity, you will not be shown mercy or forgiveness, you will miss out on the resurrection and you will miss out on living forever in paradise. seriously, i get it. i lived it for a quarter century.
apples and oranges again. it's clear to me and my child that my car is my car. i have my ownership that puts my name on it. i have my finance agreement with my name on it. the police will enforce that property right if necessary. with blood, it's a bit more blurry. it's in my body. it is unique to me. with other property, possession is regarded as 9/10ths of the law. yet god "owns" everyone's blood??
would i expect my child to respect my vehicle's ownership? of course i would. would i reasonably expect him or her to test that boundary, as part of normal human development? yes, i would. but then again, i'm not god and i don't have the means to destroy people for testing my boundaries.

apearently, you dont get it and probably didnt. and i agree with sharon 100%. you cant tell me what i believe and i do not believe that jehovah will absolutly not forgive me if i did that. he forgives people who have killed people, why would he not forgive that. those with faith just dont want to test him. why would you deliberatly sin against god? would you do that to someone else you love? if that is how you look at your relationship with him, like sharon stated, i can only imagine how you treat others.

she characterizes you as someone with an axe to grind becuase that how it appears by your posts.

RN Randy · Nov 25, 2007

The original article was to posted for responses but I am saddened how this has now turned into a slinging match.
Are we all professionals here?
We are right? Correct me if I am wrong.
We have the right to express our thoughts and feelings but to be rude to each other does not show any professionalism to anyone.
As long as our beliefs and thoughts do not cloud our work ethics then we are ok.
Please do consider each one's feelings.
Discussing Religion is always going to be a hot topic but again we all have our own beliefs and no amount of arguing will change it.
I think this thread has truly gone past its used by date.
I wish all my nursing collegues here a wonderfully blessed Sunday.

Amen brother, thanks for the input.

Religion just drags people down... as this argument [yes, argument, not debate], proves; so long as you subscribe to religion, you will usually spend your time arguing with the religious. It's been a sport for a few thousand years now... and try as I might, I can't find a place in the Word that says "I'm Jewish, so should you be."....

My input here is simple. Religion sucks.

Your relationship with Christ to the Father is a very personal one.

Seek salvation without religion and only then will you truly be saved.

[and not carry on like this]

Translation: This whole tread has literally gone to hell.

Waste time arguing till ya die... and in the end, you've sinned,

and only God is right, you silly mortal.

You have a blessed Sunday too Sabby!

rb

allnurses Guide · Nov 25, 2007

Typo Steph?
This debate has not been about that for several pages.
I have asked about this before but I wonder how many people have died secondary to blood transfusions as a result of their "faith" in medical science. When that happens, no one and I do mean NO ONE ever questions their decision to accept blood. Why is that?

Not a typo . . .

The original story says:

"Christine Harris, a friend of Ms Gough's mother-in-law Sham Gough, said: "The family have told me that a blood transfusion wouldn't have saved Emma."

So, this particular story is NOT about what we are talking about. That HAD she had a blood transfusion, she would have lived and not left her children "mother-less". That she had a condition that only blood would rectify and she refused the blood and she died. Something else was wrong. Something else killed her. It isn't about blood. But this thread IS about blood.

I'm sure there are stories about people who have died, refusing a blood transfusion. I don't think this is that story.

However, the debate it sparked it worth having. Respectfully of course.

I just found it interesting that this debate is going on when what we are debating, didn't happen.

And I'm not saying the debate should stop.

Just a quirky little thing in my head . . . that's all.

steph

HvnSntRN · Nov 25, 2007

It is as clear as the day is long that you are someone with an axe to grind and now we know why. Is that just part of the story or the whole story?

It is only part of my story. I'll get into the rest later.

In the interest of full disclosure, I was raised as a JW and my mother is still a practicing JW and has been for 36 years now. For my own personal reasons, I chose not to enter the Truth and I doubt I ever will. However, my experience did not leave me bitter as it clearly has you,

For all you know, my "bitterness" toward the Watch Tower Society is perfectly justifiable.

if anything it has left me with a greater respect for all others' religious and spiritual choices. Thankfully, most of the people with whom I was raised with are similar. (I come from a small-town congregation). I hope that one day you are able to make peace with what happened to you.

There are some experiences that cannot be made peace with or justified in any way. They serve to teach us about personal integrity and sacrifice and standing up for what is right. The anger and indignation over those experiences are powerful motivators to promote change. I'm sure you understand that on some level.

I come from a small town congregation too. One where the elders aided a JW who molested his daughters in escaping from the authorities. Sure they "disfellowshipped" him (twice) and advised the family to have the girls sent away. After he was "reinstated" a second time, they assigned him to the Bible study group in my parents' home, where he then molested me. When I very publicly told him to keep his hands to himself, I was the one who got in trouble, not him. I was intimidated into silence. They didn't bother informing my parents that they were assigning someone they knew to be a child molester to the Bible study group in our home. The elders decided to protect their own kids, they didn't care that they were putting me in harm's way. So, yes, I am very bitter about that and I feel that what happened to me was totally evil and wrong. Please do not assume that my "bitterness" / righteous indignation is unjustified.

My mother who has CRI has already stated that when the time comes she will not accept dialysis. This is an informed decision that she has made well in advance and I know for a fact that she did not do this with influence or coercion from the elders, in fact I know that she has never even discussed this with anyone outside of the immediate family. This was a personal, spiritual choice she has made like many JWs and not because of intimidation or coercion from the elders as you claimed. That may have been your experience but it is not the experience of all so I will kindly ask YOU to stop taking your personal experience and applying it to all Witnesses. Thanks.

OK, so your personal experience, which is not the experience of all either, has more merit than mine, and should be applied to all Witnesses? Is that what you are saying?

Look, Sharon, it's clear that you and I will need to agree to disagree. I know and love a lot of people who are JWs, but I do not respect the Watch Tower Society or its leadership. I'm not interested in arguing with you further, but that doesn't mean that I won't give up my right to free speech and the expression of my opinion either.

allnurses Guide · Nov 25, 2007

It is only part of my story. I'll get into the rest later.
For all you know, my "bitterness" toward the Watch Tower Society is perfectly justifiable.
There are some experiences that cannot be made peace with or justified in any way. They serve to teach us about personal integrity and sacrifice and standing up for what is right. The anger and indignation over those experiences are powerful motivators to promote change. I'm sure you understand that on some level.
I come from a small town congregation too. One where the elders aided a JW who molested his daughters in escaping from the authorities. Sure they "disfellowshipped" him (twice) and advised the family to have the girls sent away. After he was "reinstated" a second time, they assigned him to the Bible study group in my parents' home, where he then molested me. When I very publicly told him to keep his hands to himself, I was the one who got in trouble, not him. I was intimidated into silence. They didn't bother informing my parents that they were assigning someone they knew to be a child molester to the Bible study group in our home. The elders decided to protect their own kids, they didn't care that they were putting me in harm's way. So, yes, I am very bitter about that and I feel that what happened to me was totally evil and wrong. Please do not assume that my "bitterness" / righteous indignation is unjustified.
OK, so your personal experience, which is not the experience of all either, has more merit than mine, and should be applied to all Witnesses? Is that what you are saying?
Look, Sharon, it's clear that you and I will need to agree to disagree. I know and love a lot of people who are JWs, but I do not respect the Watch Tower Society. I'm not interested in arguing with you further, but that doesn't mean that I won't give up my right to free speech and the expression of my opinion either.

I'm sorry this happened to you. Truly sorry. Unfortunately, there are stories like this in every religious practice and actually in homes across America. The leaders of your particular church should be ashamed of themselves. I know of a local EMT whose parents shunned her when she left her abusive alcoholic husband - they are occasionally patients at our hospital and won't even look at her when they see her in the hallways. They have no relationship with their grandkids.

The Catholic church and others have their own stories to tell.

But I don't think this is the majority in any religious arena.

I don't blame God for our failures though. Just an aside there . .

steph

SharonH, RN · Nov 25, 2007

Not a typo . . .
The original story says:
"Christine Harris, a friend of Ms Gough's mother-in-law Sham Gough, said: "The family have told me that a blood transfusion wouldn't have saved Emma."

So, this particular story is NOT about what we are talking about. That HAD she had a blood transfusion, she would have lived and not left her children "mother-less". That she had a condition that only blood would rectify and she refused the blood and she died. Something else was wrong. Something else killed her. It isn't about blood. But this thread IS about blood.

I'm sure there are stories about people who have died, refusing a blood transfusion. I don't think this is that story.

However, the debate it sparked it worth having. Respectfully of course.

I just found it interesting that this debate is going on when what we are debating, didn't happen.

And I'm not saying the debate should stop.

Just a quirky little thing in my head . . . that's all.

steph

Thanks for clarifying Steph. I see what you are saying.

I agree that the debate should continue although it really comes down to one thing: how do we provide safe nonjudgmental care to people whose beliefs we may not understand or agree with? Some people seem to have a harder problem with that than others of us. The hope of discussions on the matter is that health professionals will gain a greater understanding which allows them to do so.

delvenia · Nov 25, 2007

I come from a small town congregation too. One where the elders aided a JW who molested his daughters in escaping from the authorities. Sure they "disfellowshipped" him (twice) and advised the family to have the girls sent away. After he was "reinstated" a second time, they assigned him to the Bible study group in my parents' home, where he then molested me. When I very publicly told him to keep his hands to himself, I was the one who got in trouble, not him. I was intimidated into silence. They didn't bother informing my parents that they were assigning someone they knew to be a child molester to the Bible study group in our home. The elders decided to protect their own kids, they didn't care that they were putting me in harm's way. So, yes, I am very bitter about that and I feel that what happened to me was totally evil and wrong. Please do not assume that my "bitterness" / righteous indignation is unjustified.

I was a rape victim for many years. My mother was aware that it was going on, but she loved her husband more than me at the time. She was not a JW. I am very sorry that you went though what you did, but that doesnt mean that the Watch Tower Society supported those actions. You cant hold the whole organization accountable for a few sick people. There are bad people in every organization/group, but there are also loving, good people as well. Your anger should rightly be toward the ones who allowed it. How do you think I felt when I was told by my own mother to allow my stepfather in the bathroom when I bathed? I forgave her and I still love her because I know that she was weak and ill at the time. I came from an area with many congrgations, so we have a lot of others keeping tabs on us, but in every congrgation it is up to the elders to handle such things and report them to the necessary parties. Elders are also imperfect.

I will pray that you get the healing that you need to move past this terrible act, as I know how hard it can be to deal with.....

delvenia · Nov 25, 2007

Thanks for clarifying Steph. I see what you are saying.
I agree that the debate should continue although it really comes down to one thing: how do we provide safe nonjudgmental care to people whose beliefs we may not understand or agree with? Some people seem to have a harder problem with that than others of us. The hope of discussions on the matter is that health professionals will gain a greater understanding which allows them to do so.

You are absolutly correct. We are all imperfect. Our job is to care for people not to determine how they should or should not live their life, or what decision should be made...

SharonH, RN · Nov 25, 2007

Please do not assume that my "bitterness" / righteous indignation is unjustified.
OK, so your personal experience, which is not the experience of all either, has more merit than mine, and should be applied to all Witnesses? Is that what you are saying?
Look, Sharon, it's clear that you and I will need to agree to disagree. I know and love a lot of people who are JWs, but I do not respect the Watch Tower Society or its leadership. I'm not interested in arguing with you further, but that doesn't mean that I won't give up my right to free speech and the expression of my opinion either.

1. I never stated that your bitterness was not justified. Only that your experiences have colored your responses to this subject.

2. I never stated that my personal experience has more merit than yours and it should be pretty obvious that wasn't my point.

3. Steph already stated it best: your experience can be found in every religion and outside of religion. What happened to you was the personal failings of man in the name of religion. Unfortunately you seem to be unable to separate those failures from the millions of Witnesses who had nothing to do with happened to you. Hopefully you will one day get to that point.

Finally I am not interested in arguing with you any further. You are perfectly entitled to free speech and your opinion but I don't think you are entitled to disrespect your colleagues. And with that, I'm finished. You may have the last word on this matter if you wish.

delvenia · Nov 25, 2007

I'm sorry this happened to you. Truly sorry. Unfortunately, there are stories like this in every religious practice and actually in homes across America. The leaders of your particular church should be ashamed of themselves. I know of a local EMT whose parents shunned her when she left her abusive alcoholic husband - they are occasionally patients at our hospital and won't even look at her when they see her in the hallways. They have no relationship with their grandkids.
The Catholic church and others have their own stories to tell.
But I don't think this is the majority in any religious arena.
I don't blame God for our failures though. Just an aside there . .
steph

Steph, you are truly insightful and I couldn't agree with you more