mother dies after refusing blood transfusion - page 13

A very sad story from England.... Read More

  1. by   del2009
    Quote from doe9181
    I admire JW for having such a strong faith base and sticking to their beliefs. I would hope I would be like that if it came down to it. I do pity the children that lost their mother, but unfortunately it wa the mother's choice.

    Someone mentioned before if JW are mostly vegetarian because the rule says they can not eat animal blood. That is a very good point because their is blood in red meat so I wonder if they abstain. Does anyone know the answer to this question? I'm curious.
    The answer to your question is no. We do not need to abstain from meat. The Bible allowed people to eat meat, God just said that we have to pour out the blood itself from the body, because it contains the soul. When you eat a cheese burger, does it contian a quart of blood? no, because the person who slaughtered the cow drained the blood from it. Meat is a muscle. Though it is comprised of some blood, it is a huge difference between frying a steak and drinking a glass of blood....
  2. by   HvnSntRN
    Quote from sharonh, rn
    quote:
    originally posted by hvnsntrn
    they are more concerned about offending their god, than they are about leaving a child without a mother.

    this statement is patently false and a completely unfair characterization of what is an agonizing decision for most people. i have never met a jw either in person or in the hospital who took their healthcare decisions cavalierly and who did not consider the consequences of refusing blood or blood products. why exactly are you so disrespectful?
    i never suggested that this was a decision that was handled in a cavalier manner, that it was not agonizing, or that it was made without weighing the possible outcomes. why do you assume that i feel otherwise, when my statement very succinctly summarizes exactly what delvenia posted, less than 10 minutes following yours:

    i am a devote jehovah's witness and the decision is because 1) we obey god as ruler, not men. in the bible it says that you must not partake of blood, as it contains the soul. the blood does not belong to you or me, it belongs to god. 2) if you truly have strong faith and believe in jesus' words, then you would know that this patient will be resurrected and will see their family again, just as lazurus was. that is our choice to make and our burden to bare. i refused blood as well when i had surgery in 05 and i was fine (wasn't a major surgery), but when it comes to your faith, you have to ask yourself " is my life here right now worth sacrificing the life that god promised for me later." i hope this helps to give some of you our view on the matter....
    so, is delvenia, one of jehovah's witnesses, lying too?

    isn't it true that ultimately, the decision to refuse blood treatment by a jw is so that they can demonstrate their integrity to jehovah? isn't it true that jws believe that failure to do so will result in jehovah's disapproval and they may not receive forgiveness from god for failing to prove their integrity - meaning they will not be resurrected in the earthly paradise / be reunited with loved ones by being resurrected? to me, that sounds like a god who is "offended" and who is neither merciful nor forgiving.

    i am not interested in debating with you, sharon. you can believe whatever you choose and i respect and uphold your right to do so, and the same should go for me. i don't have to agree with your beliefs or even respect those beliefs, but i do respect your right to have those beliefs.

    fwiw, i am someone who almost died as a result of wanting to demonstrate my integrity to jehovah. so is my mother. i would ask you kindly not to characterize me as someone who knows nothing about what jehovah's witnesses believe, or as someone "with an axe to grind". that's very disrespectful of you with regard to my beliefs, don't you think? why are you so disrespectful of me?

    i disagree with the watch tower society's current position on blood transfusion. i believe that it will ultimately become a matter of conscience, just as organ transplants went from being forbidden to a matter of personal conscience. all indicators, by way modifications in the fractions that are allowed to the sworn statement before the european commission on human rights regarding bulgarian jws having full freedom to accept blood transfusions without sanction, point to that eventuality.
    Last edit by HvnSntRN on Nov 25, '07
  3. by   del2009
    [quote=suanna;2512706]
    Quote from hvnsntrn
    they are more concerned about offending their god, than they are about leaving a child without a mother.
    and when soldiers go off to fight in a war, they are concerned about leaving a child without a father/mother? what's the difference? i would rather die, knowing that i have god's approval when i go rather than die fighting for, actually, what is this war about again? it seems that not many people know. it's ironic that if you die for a country, you are considered a hero, but if you die because you are obeying god's will, you are considered a fanatic.
  4. by   del2009
    Quote from hvnsntrn


    so, is delvenia, one of jehovah's witnesses, lying too?

    to me, that sounds like a god who is "offended" and who is neither merciful nor forgiving.
    do you think that it is okay for people to fight in wars. if so then you are being hypocritical. as far as sharon's statement goes, i took offense to what you said, not her. jehovah is very merciful and forgiving and that is why each of us is alive today. the reason we obstain from blood as well as doing other things is to not take advantage of him and his kindness. we want to please him because we love him and appreciate the gift he gave each of us, life. if your child knew that you would forgive him/her for stealing your car, do you still think that it is okay for that child to do such a thing? a rational person would answer no, because your child is commisioned to obey you and not disrespect you. we view ourselves as "god's children" and wish to be obedient to his laws...
    Last edit by del2009 on Nov 25, '07
  5. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from delvenia
    The answer to your question is no. We do not need to abstain from meat. The Bible allowed people to eat meat, God just said that we have to pour out the blood itself from the body, because it contains the soul. When you eat a cheese burger, does it contian a quart of blood? no, because the person who slaughtered the cow drained the blood from it. Meat is a muscle. Though it is comprised of some blood, it is a huge difference between frying a steak and drinking a glass of blood....
    Meat does contain minor amounts of blood, you are right.

    Most of us have said that we agree with a person's right to make whatever religious decision they feel necessary in this case but we also have qualms with leaving behind children when a blood transfusion may have saved someone.

    Funny that this debate is about a story in which it has been said that blood would not have saved this mother.

    steph
    Last edit by Spidey's mom on Nov 25, '07
  6. by   del2009
    Quote from stevielynn
    Meat does contain minor amounts of blood, you are right.

    Most of us have said that we agree with a person's right to make whatever religious decision they feel necessary in this case but we also have a problem with leaving behind children when a blood transfusion may have saved someone.

    Funny that this debate is about a story in which it has been said that blood would not have saved this mother.

    steph
    I dont understand, who said that blood would not have saved her? I thought this debate was about whether or not the doctor's should have respected her wishes, meaning that it meant death (which is what everyone's responses have elluded to thus far). Am I missing something?
  7. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from hvnsntrn
    i never suggested that this was a decision that was handled in a cavalier manner, that it was not agonizing, or that it was made without weighing the possible outcomes. .
    making statements like "they are more concerned about offending their god than leaving child without a mother" most certainly does diminish the emotions and the decision-making process when one decide whether to take a blood transfusion or not




    Quote from hvnsntrn
    why do you assume that i feel otherwise, when my statement very succinctly summarizes exactly what delvenia posted, less than 10 minutes following yours:
    your statement and delvenia's statements are miles apart. she clearly speaks of burdens and sacrifices which belies the emotions involved in making her choice. your choice of words does not. additionally, having read your other statements on this matter it was a lot easier to put your words in the scornful context in which you meant them. no assumptions needed to be made.



    Quote from hvnsntrn
    isn't it true that ultimately, the decision to refuse blood treatment by a jw is so that they can demonstrate their integrity to jehovah? isn't it true that jws believe that failure to do so will result in jehovah's disapproval and they may not receive forgiveness from god for failing to prove their integrity - meaning they will not be resurrected in the earthly paradise / be reunited with loved ones by being resurrected? to me, that sounds like a god who is "offended" and who is neither merciful nor forgiving.

    that's a great interpretation. how you can take this and conclude that therefore "jws are more concerned about offending "their" god than leaving a child without a mother" is still the issue.



    Quote from hvnsntrn
    fwiw, i am someone who almost died as a result of wanting to demonstrate my integrity to jehovah. so is my mother. i would ask you kindly not to characterize me as someone who knows nothing about what jehovah's witnesses believe, or as someone with an axe to grind.

    it is as clear as the day is long that you are someone with an axe to grind and now we know why. is that just part of the story or the whole story? fwiw, i was not attempting to characterize you as someone did not know anything about jws. i knew right away that you were someone who had intimate involvement with jws. in the interest of full disclosure, i was raised as a jw and my mother is still a practicing jw and has been for 36 years now. for my own personal reasons, i chose not to enter the truth and i doubt i ever will. however, my experience did not leave me bitter as it clearly has you, if anything it has left me with a greater respect for all others' religious and spiritual choices. thankfully, most of the people with whom i was raised with are similar. (i come from a small-town congregation). i hope that one day you are able to make peace with what happened to you.

    my mother who has cri has already stated that when the time comes she will not accept dialysis. this is an informed decision that she has made well in advance and i know for a fact that she did not do this with influence or coercion from the elders, in fact i know that she has never even discussed this with anyone outside of the immediate family. this was a personal, spiritual choice she has made like many jws and not because of intimidation or coercion from the elders as you claimed. that may have been your experience but it is not the experience of all so i will kindly ask you to stop taking your personal experience and applying it to all witnesses. thanks.
  8. by   RN Randy
    Quote from zlatamoya
    For example, thousands each year go to the military to support a cause that they feel is worthy enough that they may have to risk their life. Please continue to respect a patient's autonomy and speak with any JW's that you know to get a better view of why we hold this view. Thank you, and please know this family is in my prayers and my heart hurts for her little ones.
    Eh?? How does fighting for your country/*risking* your life for freedom and a cause compare with refusing treatment in the face of death?? [risking your life vs risking your soul.]

    Listen peeps, Arguing religious view goes nowhere [being that religion itself is the root problem] but this particular one seems to get beat to death and resurrected a million times over.

    What needs to be understood here is not JW's or any other organization for that matter.
    What needs understanding is the simple fact that people have the right to live and die as they see fit.
    It's called 'free will' and rest assured it is a gift directly from God.
    Use it as you see fit, and guaranteed; your reward will be in kind.

    People have and will allow death to take them out of here in the name of Satan.

    Understand this: There is *NOTHING* you can do about it except pray for them.

    There's a lot of sadness in this world and if you think you have seen even 1% of it, you're a fool. These petty things are not even on the radar, and to run another cliche to the ground... "Don't sweat the petty things." You can't force your beliefs on anyone!

    Trust me, if mankind ever gets on track you'll know it without a doubt, because all steepled buildings will suddenly have only one word over the door. [Church].

    Your job is to pass the word, point the way, and offer to walk with... and if you are refused, your orders are to shake even the dust from your sandals and keep moving ahead; for your reward awaits.

    [PS: Looking back has also been shown to be a bad thing...]

    So in the words of an old and wise TV lizard.....

    "Let it go, Louie.... Just let it go."

    rb
  9. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from stevielynn
    Funny that this debate is about a story in which it has been said that blood would not have saved this mother.

    steph

    Typo Steph?


    This debate has not been about that for several pages.

    I have asked about this before but I wonder how many people have died secondary to blood transfusions as a result of their "faith" in medical science. When that happens, no one and I do mean NO ONE ever questions their decision to accept blood. Why is that?
  10. by   del2009
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    . This was a personal, spiritual choice she has made like many JWs and not because of intimidation or coercion from the elders as you claimed. That may have been your experience but it is not the experience of all so I will kindly ask YOU to stop taking your personal experience and applying it to all Witnesses. Thanks.
    Your mother has to be proud of you for maintaining such integrity. You are taking more of a stand for our faith than some of our own brothers and sisters have been able to and it is greatly appreciated. I just got baptized 7/8/06 and I am still a babe in the truth, but my love for Jehovah is unparalled. People such as yourself helps to give me the motivation to keep on moving and keep on preaching. Thank you and give your mother my regards
  11. by   del2009
    Quote from rmbelcher
    Eh?? How does fighting for your country/*risking* your life for freedom and a cause compare with refusing treatment in the face of death?? [risking your life vs risking your soul.]


    What needs understanding is the simple fact that people have the right to live and die as they see fit.
    It's called 'free will' and rest assured it is a gift directly from God.
    Use it as you see fit, and guaranteed; your reward will be in kind.

    People have and will allow death to take them out of here in the name of Satan.
    I agree with everything you said except for the first part. You are right, they dont compare. God is much more significant. Are you saying that you owe more reverance to a country than to God who created you? Are you saying that it's okay to die for other immortal men that cant save you, but it is stupid to die for your creator? I dont understand that, but maybe I am reading it incorrectly and that is not what you meant.

    Niether the less, I think you hit everything else right on the nail in your last statement. It is a matter of choice and should be respected...
    Last edit by del2009 on Nov 25, '07
  12. by   HvnSntRN
    Quote from delvenia
    do you think that it is okay for people to fight in wars. if so then you are being hypocritical.
    you are comparing apples to oranges, delvenia. assuming my thoughts on war, you call me a hypocrite before you know my answer to your question. i'll let you know right now that i do not intend to get drawn into your false analogy, despite my pacifist convictions.

    Quote from delvenia
    as far as sharon's statement goes, i took offense to what you said, not her. jehovah is very merciful and forgiving and that is why each of us is alive today.
    if you read sharon's post, she was offended too. otherwise she would not have characterized me as a liar and as someone with an axe to grind, despite your confirmation of my statement.

    Quote from delvenia
    jehovah is very merciful and forgiving and that is why each of us is alive today. the reason we obstain from blood as well as doing other things is to not take advantage of him and his kindness. we want to please him because we love him and appreciate the gift he gave each of us, life.
    you don't want to take advantage of him and his kindness, and you want to please him because you love him and appreciate the gift of life that came from him. yet you also believe that if you do not show your integrity, you will not be shown mercy or forgiveness, you will miss out on the resurrection and you will miss out on living forever in paradise. seriously, i get it. i lived it for a quarter century.

    Quote from delvenia
    if your child knew that you would forgive him/her for stealing your car, do you still think that it is okay for that child to do such a thing? a rational person would answer no, because your child is commisioned to obey you and not disrespect you. we view ourselves as "god's children" and wish to be obedient to his laws...
    apples and oranges again. it's clear to me and my child that my car is my car. i have my ownership that puts my name on it. i have my finance agreement with my name on it. the police will enforce that property right if necessary. with blood, it's a bit more blurry. it's in my body. it is unique to me. with other property, possession is regarded as 9/10ths of the law. yet god "owns" everyone's blood??

    would i expect my child to respect my vehicle's ownership? of course i would. would i reasonably expect him or her to test that boundary, as part of normal human development? yes, i would. but then again, i'm not god and i don't have the means to destroy people for testing my boundaries.
  13. by   RN Randy
    Quote from delvenia
    I agree with everything you said except for the first part. You are right, they dont compare. God is much more significant. Are you saying that you owe more reverance to a country than to God who created you? Are you saying that it's okay to die for other immortal men that cant save you, but it is stupid to die for your creator? I dont understand that, but maybe I am reading it incorrectly and that is not what you meant.

    Niether the less, I think you hit everything else right on the nail in your last statement. It is a matter of choice and should be respected...
    Mercy... let's not look for a fight where one doesn't exist....

    Paraphrasing with words like "stupid" only ruffle feathers.

    I'll rephrase my whole first statement:

    "Bad analogy... *risking* life and *accepting* death is apples/oranges.

    That's all I meant. Sorry for the crypto.
    rb

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